I am hoping that you all can help answer some questions for me. I have a daughter who plays 4th grade basketball while in a tournament last night something went horribly wrong. I hope I dont offend anyone but the ref. was bad. He called multiple fouls on our team and let the other get away with blatantly obvious fouls. Also the "young" man controlling the clock and poss. was completely off. He didnt stop the clock when he was suppose to, at one point he gave the other team points for a missed basket. They sat one of our girls for fouling out, but the one saving grace we had is that this game was recorded and it is so obvious the favortism that it is sickening. Our girls lost 4 to 6. Of those 6 points the other team was handed 4 of them on 7 different times on the free throw line. My question is how is it that with so many people complaining, (it was bad enough that the other team had a problem with the calls being made)that nothing was done to justify the situation? Is there not someone we can send the video to so they can review the situation and possibly do something to rectify it? In honestly I think they should be allowed to play again. With officals who are fair to both teams.

Wow...a 4th grade girl's game? Could you please be more specific? You must remember you have an interest on who wins, the "bad" ref doesn't.

I'm not sure what kind of refs you expect for a 4th grade girl's game. I know I don't get very excited about calls in my son's 5th grade games as it usually a parent or student working for peanuts if they are getting paid at all.

IT IS 4TH GRADE BASKETBALL. You are lucky to get anyone willing to work the game whether those are officials or those are people willing to work the clock. Most of the parents spend all their time complaining than getting involved and helping out and volunteering to do these jobs. You are also likely to have officials that are just as new to the game of basketball from an officiating point of view as your kids are when they are trying to learn to play. I played when I was that age and I could not tell you a thing about any game or who officiated those games. Stop complaining about the officiating and the clock operator and let your kids have fun. You will set a better example if you just let them know they are having fun than treating these games as a chance to get a D1 scholarship. My God the basketball is bigger than most kids. I am surprise they score at all half the time.

Peace

Momstwo I hope I don't offend you, but seriously can u really blame a this game on the officials. Officials may have called a bad game but I doubt they gave the game to the other team. Also this is 4th grade basketball, come on is it really that important. This is where new officials learn. I think it would be uncalled for for you to even try to protest a 4th grade girls game. I hope the kids had fun. I hope I don't offend you but it sounds like that game was for fun, and it is parents like you who make the game no fun for everyone involved, players, coaches, fans, and officials. O by the way how much about the rules do you know. i have been an official for 2 years, am getting some decently respective games, work hard to learn and as you can see from my posts I still have lots to learn.

Hey momstwo, what is your daughter, like 8 or 9?

Guess what? 10 years from now you'll have forgotten this entire thing. 10 minutes from now your daughter will.

Good luck.

Mom:

I am a parent of two male athletes and I have a number of things to say to you. The first two things are going to sound harsh, but ...

The first is: Get a life!

The second thing is the officials did not cause your daughter's team to lose. You have a better chance of winning the Mega Millions or Power Ball Lottery before the game officials could have caused your daughter's team to lose.

The officials at your daughter's level of play are almost always beginning officials who are getting their first oncourt experience. I am sure that they made some mistakes but not nearly as many mistakes as the two teams combined made or even just your daughter's team.

Children at this age should be playing sports for the simple reason that playing is fun and that winning should not even be a thing to be thought of.

There many members of this forum that will tell you that I am letting you off easily tonight because I really do not feel like going into full attack dog mode. But I hope that I have given you some food for thought.

MTD, Sr.

As any number of other members of this forum will tell you

Be careful here Mark, SOMEONE's gotta win it.
c'mon...we all know you're just a great big pussy cat!

:)

How can everyone forget.....if you are that upset about the officiating, contact your state, pass your tests, and go out and work the games yourself. Also, Mom, this is a 4th grade game. It is very likely that the official was not a real official (it does take a little more than putting on a shirt and grabbing a whistle) and it sounds as if the scorers table was certainly ran by a student they could get to do it. These games are for your children to learn to play. As I always say in posts like this....go to the game, cheer on your kid, pat them on the back and tell them nice game, and finally and most importantly take them out for ice cream.

WOW...talk about attack. My goodness, I am sorry I asked. I am not the person in the stands yelling and screaming, Im the one in the stands encouraging not only my child but the whole team. I am also one of the first ones to tell them what a great job they have done WIN OR LOSE!!!! So please dont catagorize me with those "insane parents"! I ALWAYS thank the officals!!! But this isnt about me, although you seem to have turned it into that. Your absolutely right it is for fun!!! As for my comment about the ref being a "bad ref" I hold to that, we have had to many great refs to not be able to tell the difference. No need to slam me for that comment, because Im referring to refs that officated in games we lost too.

Aint life funny?

You ask a question and get an answer you don't expect!

Maybe pass this lesson on to your daughter.

Uh....it does say at the top of each of these webpages that this is an official's forum. What did you expect? Now if you had a particular rules question, you might have gotten some feedback as to whether the officials handled the situation correctly. If you're looking for a place to vent about officials, this probably isn't the place. We never said you were a problem fan, but unless you have particulars, you'll find that officials are a pretty tight knit community and we back each other up.

Momstwo: Okay I got an idea how about we put all patched and great officials at those games, then not train any new refs so by the time you kids get to highschool all the good refs have been forced to retire. Then don't come crying to me when ur kids loose a game that could actually matter because the refs are bad. I am all for training new refs at these games that mean NOTHING in fact I train those guys myself. I HOPE I DIDNT OFFEND YOU. If you don't like how about you go out and try to ref, and make sure the recorder is rolling so you can compare, I bet your worse.

Why not get into refereeing yourself? I think it might be a truly enlightening experience for you. It may change your views/attitude about fairness, good sportsmanship, etc. There are several women officials on this website.

__________________________________________________ ________
We don't see things as THEY are; we see them as WE ARE."

Actually, I respect what some of you have to say and the others that felt the need to attack, well I'll file that in a special place. I believe one of the first things I said was that it wasnt my intention to offend anyone. Sounds like some of you use this board as a way to offend. No it wasnt the advice I asked for because alot of you simply assumed you knew what kind of "parent" I am. Way off base guys!!! Also it is beneath me to argue with you MTD. I dont have time nor the patient to argue with hateful people. To those of you that helped THANK YOU!!!

Hey momstwo, was it really neccesary to name names. Your right tho you are not smart enough to argue with MTD. MTD knows way more about basketball then you do about Actually the more you say the more I think you are proving you are really that type of parent we think you are. I'll tell you what why not teach your kids to go up to the refs and tell them they suck during the game, and watch your kid get tossed from the game. When that happens please send me the tape of that. COME ON LADY GET REAL.

You did not offend me. I just think you do not have perspective on what these games really are. They are not about you and what you think about the officials. These games are about the KIDS!!! If the officials screwed up, so freaking what. It is a 4TH GRADE SCHOOL GAME!!! Your kid might not be good enough to play when she gets to 6th grade.

Peace

Hey Mark, I think she's angry at you.

I can't tell what she thinks about me though...think she likes me?

This is a 4th grade game, is it really worth getting this worked up about? Yes, everyone likes to win, but again IT IS A 4TH GRADE GAME! You're talking about sending in tapes and such? Relax, move on. If someone was physically hurt it might and I stress might be worth the trouble, but it doesn't seem that anyone was. This forum is not a place for us to offend, but it is a place where we discuss rules, game situations, and other topics directly related to officiating. If you have a legitimate QUESTION please come back and we'll be happy to enlighten you as to what may have happenend (MTD is excellent with rules questions by they way), but if you're venting, this is not the place.

Dan_ref
I think she hates us all. I think she hates us because we are officials. I don't care if those people hate me. I think Mark and her should go one on one in a rules test and see who knows more about reffing. I bet this "mom" gets nothing right.

Your son/daughter, whatever he/she is, I didn't read it, isn't even going to remember this game when she is older. Stop fretting so much about the officials. If you think the officials were so bad why don't you become an official, take over the officiating program of the league your son/daughter works so you can fix it and there can never be complaints ever again.

Tough to say Dan. Worked any 4-6 4th grade games with a bad scorers table lately?

Junker I work with them alot, little 5th grade kids. Its easy you keep track of the possession arrow. and at this level of the game its not that hard to remeber the score. Their you go you can get thru this game with out them. I still think that this " mom" needs to get real.

Nope.

I worked some 4th grade scrimmages this year, hoping to move up next year from 2nd & 3rd grade games.

There probably is no organization to send a tape to. My state has the largest Grammar school Athletic Association in the country called the IESA (that is what they say). Even this organization does not cover every school in every part of the state. I find the whole thing funny and ridiculous. One day parents will realize there was a time when kids played sports because it was fun. Not because their life would change based on what happen in 4th grade.

Peace

Please keep in mind I NEVER said I knew more than the officals. Nor did I say I wanted to put on a whistle and pledge to this "black and white code of honor" that you all belong to. I didnt know that officating at a 4th grade game was so degrading to most of you.

Momstwo: Wait a second if you don't know more about reffing then those guys out their, then how can you say they did a bad job????????????
Mrs. You really don't make much sense

Mom- I would take the game tape to the local tv station. Maybe they could do an under cover report. "The Fix is On- Officials So Bad They Cost 4th Graders Game" or "Officials Screw 4th Graders Out Of DI Scholarships" on the next Maury.

Wait a second here sweetheart.

No one said working these games is degrading.

I'm starting to think you're a troll...but if you're not, good luck to you & the kid.

tweet!! full time out requested.

momstwo: refs "bad"

officials: Thank you

back to your regular scheduled forum.

The reality is 4th grade is for officials that are just starting out. Most people that officiate want to work HS and/or college ball at some point. Usually the better officials leave this level behind because of parents like you complaining about things that you know nothing about. Parents acting as if these games are going to be life changing events and every call are going to change every game a lot of officials just decide to pass. These games can be a lot of fun if parents and coaches take the games for what they are. Many of these kids will be burned out by the HS years from any sports because their parents think they are grooming the next Michael Jordan or Candace Parker.

Peace

Once again to those of you who werent on full attack, Thank you!! To the others Have a Nice Evening!! I am RELAXED!!!!

Momstwo:

I've been a volunteer scorer/statistician for CYO games (grades 4-6 and 7-8), so I do kind of have an idea of games on this level.

A lot of the game crew (scorers/timers) on this level are volunteer, and with games on weekends, it's hard to find people who are willing and/or able to serve in that capacity. I've done many home games with a minor as the timer. Yes, they do tend to make "rookie" mistakes, but luckily, I know enough to remind them when the clock should start/stop and stuff like that. Sometimes with two complete novices at the table, its hard for them to help each other out like this. It is frustrating from a fan's standpoint, but try to have some patience. After all, if it was your first time working at the table and you had a rough outing, I'd imagine you wouldn't want people to be overly critical of you. Also keep in mind that on this level, a good number of the officials are rookies and invariably make a few mistakes.

Another thing I can suggest based on my experience is don't get overly worked up over games at this level. Yes, it can be irritating if you think officials miss calls or the table crew is screwing up. But most of the times, the kids at that age don't know or don't care. They are too busy trying to play their hearts out. One year we had a team of mostly 4th graders who was placed into a division of all 6th graders. We didn't win a single game, but the kids played hard each game and never gave up, in spite of what the adults may or may not have done. In fact, we lost one game 46-0, and the kids were still in good spirts afterwards.

Lastly, I'd like to add that part of the reason I'm no longer volunteering as table crew for my school's CYO teams is because of the adults who thought they were the focus and not the kids. I personally think there are too many adults who do things that take the fun out of youth sports. Sometimes they are unaware of their actions, and perhaps some don't care one way or another. But it's sad to see these adults lose sight of the fact that the 4th-6th grade level of our CYO league is supposed to be instructional. I don't put up with unnecessary crap when I am paid, so I'm definitely not going to tolerate it as a volunteer.

I'm not sure what to say in closing, except to try to use close games like this as a learning experience. You can always tell your child to keep working hard and it will eventually lead to good and better things. Or you might ask them what they think they need to work on (such as ball handling, passing, or shooting). As much as losing is not fun, especially in a 6-4 barn-burner ( :D ), try to teach your young athlete that they can learn to be better from a loss and that it should motivate him or her to keep playing hard.

I know this isn't written from a referee's perspective (my informal officiating of 2nd and 3rd graders notwithstanding), but I do hope you can take something meaningful out of this post.

[Edited by Stat-Man on Jan 18th, 2006 at 11:57 PM]

Stat-Man
Well said. I hope this helps her get it. If this doesn't shes never gonna understand.

Dear Mom:

Who said anything about arguing with you? I am the father of two teenage boys who participate competively in baseball, swimming, cross country, and also played basketball competively until they entered jr. H.S.

I am a H.S. and college basketball official and also officiate H.S. baseball, fast pitch softball, and soccer. I have spent ten years as a basketball rules interpreter and officials instructor. I sit on national basketball officiating rules committees. I have coached my sons' basketball teams and have helped coached my sons' baseball teams.

As a parent I have observed first hand how irrational parents become at their children's sporting events. I have on numerous occasions have had to remind parents of players on my sons' teams who have gone nuts about officiating or umpiring and these were games involving players twelve years of age and younger.

Go back and read your initial post. You sound just like a disgruntled parent. You blamed the officials for your daughter's team's failure to win the game. You need to step back and decided why you want your child to participate in sports. There have been many posts in this thread giving you some good advice about how to approach youth sports and how to become an official. I beseech you to become a registered basketball official in Arkansas. Your point of view will change completely.

MTD, Sr.

Stat-Man, Thank you so much for being so nice. As I said before I was not trying to cause problems. Simply looking for an answer that a 9 year old would understand. I will print your reply and let her read that. You are the only one who put it in words that would be helpful instead of critcizing. It was questioned why I came to this board, I came to it because I thought I would get a professional answer. Thank God I finally did!!

Amen there. During one of our CYO seasons, when I was still involved, the referees didn't show up for our last home game, so for the 4th-6th boys game, I was asked to be an official along with a parent who volunteered. (The league does allow this in a last resort situation, but also adds that if teams agree to this, they can't complain to the league after the game about the officiating).

I can tell you that in spite of what I consider decent rule knowledge, I thought it was a true challenge to serve as an official for the game. This was my first and last time officiating in a "real" game, but only because I like what I do now too much to give it up.

Yes, as a fan or player, I still might not like some calls and may even complain, but at least I remember the 6th grade game where I realized that it's defintiely not an easy job to do.

Momstwo:

This is a forum mostly for basketball officiating and rules, so posts like yours are kind of the exception to the rule. Also, we do get a number of fans and parents here who think officials are to blame for their team's poor performance (never mind the poor shooting or the turnovers...), so after a while, it just gets to a point where parents venting about a game seems to get old. Try not to take it personally. Also, we have many regulars here who love to show off their sense of humor. Just try to bear with them. :)

That said, however, there are many officials on here who can answer any questions you may have about rules. Some of the regulars here serve as trainers to other officials or even as rule interpreters (telling officials how to enforce the rules). So any rule question that is posed politely will usually get the answer it deserves.

Besides, they let me hang out here, so they can't be all bad ;)


[Edited by Stat-Man on Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:20 AM]

Mom, the answer you give your 9 year old is simple. If she brings up the officiating,which would surprise me, and the reason would be she heard some "concerned parents" screaming about it, simply tell her "Honey, it's a tough job, and I'm sure the refs did the best they could. (even if you don't really believe it yourself) The refs will make mistakes but it will even out in the long run because half the mistakes will favor your team. You just go out and have fun and do your best and don't worry too much about the officials."

How often does a thread generate 3 pages in 2 hours here?

Just another Ref: Thank you for your advice. I obviously touched a sore spot with alot of people on here. Yes, she and the rest of her team came off the court commenting about the officating. (keep in mind three of the girls were bleeding and a few other banged up) But you are absolutely right that is how it SHOULD have been handled. Like I said before Im not the parent in the stand yelling. This one was hard to stomach though, and Im sorry if that bothers some people in here. I am new to this my children have been playing for three years and this is the first time I have ever had this happen. Wrong place to post obviously. Now maybe all the ones that chewed me out will sleep a little better cause for a change they got to chew on a parent..lol

[Edited by momstwo on Jan 19th, 2006 at 01:11 AM]

You fall into the common trap on that many fall into when they get on the internet. They really think that this is all about them. I know I do not care about some 4th grade parent in my backyard. Why would I care what you say any differently? Personally I have had a lot of laughs and giggles reading what you keep saying. Come back and talk to us when your daughter is in the WNBA. Maybe then we will care.

Peace

Mom,

This forum is not a friendly place to coaches or fans. You should know that up front. Second (and unfortunately) most people in this forum will not admit that there are ANY bad refs. Many tend to blame the players and parents, in fact.

If the officiating was that bad (and it could have been) I recommend talking with athletic director at the organization that hosted the game (ie: the person who runs the league). Ask him or her to come watch a couple of the games that these particular officials are working. Perhaps they had an off night. Perhaps they're novices and don't have much training.

My guess is not that they were not favoring one team but that they just weren't very good at what they were doing.

On the flipside, when you do see good refs, report them to the athletic director as well! He or she is usually the person who hires the refs and will continue to assign games to the ones who get good reviews and comments.

That being said, know that there will always be games that you think are called badly (and you could be right), but try to not emphasize this with your kids. Tell them "Well, refs are people too and they're doing their best. Just do your best and don't worry about them."

Mom -- I've been away from the board for a few hours, being a mom, and a ref, both in the same evening. I have raised three kids, and I'm still raising a fourth, and I've reffed at least three thousand games so far, and I've seen a lot of sports from both perspectives, and I can tell you that it's you that's blowing things out of proportion, not us.

I learned the lesson about refs being truly biased when my daughter was playing about 12 years ago. She was a freshman, playing varsity, and they went to the state tournament. The reffing was so blatantly one-sided, that when I signed up to ref, and brought up that game, it was remembered by the person who had been in charge of refs for that tournament.

After the game was over, my daughter's coach got all the girls and all the parents in the locker room and gave them a talk. "You can't blame it on the refs. WHen they're prejudiced like that [my daughter, the coach and the whole team except one player, were black] you just have to rise above it. You didn't do that. You let them get under your skin, and you got rattled. Would you have won with different refs? Who knows? It doesn't matter, cuz these were the refs we had. Now you go home and figure out how to win tomorrow. Forget today. Let's do well enough tomorrow that even with the same refs, we'll win. You are all great players. You are all stars. You can do this, and don't let any stupid red-necks take it away from you. It's your attitude that counts, not theirs."

I learned a lesson from that speech. As a parent, you can't protect your child from all the bad things that happen. You do the best you can to protect them, and then you have to help them face the rest. Okay, so they had a bad game and some of them got hurt. Well, that probably shouldn't have happened, but it did. Give the kids bandaids for the scratches, wipe their tears, and talk about what's next. Making the whole thing into a federal case tells the girls that they don't have to control their own attitudes, and it's okay to blame bad things on someone else. This doesn't help them grow up.

As a ref, what I've seen is that if the players are allowed to blame their problems on the refs, they don't get better. The best teams, the best coaches, the best players adjust to the reffing that's at hand, and play through it. Girls the age of your daughter aren't going to be able to do that very well, physically, but you can at least start teaching them the concept.

"Yea, maybe that ref doesn't have much experience, but that doesn't matter. Let's work on good chest passes. I want to see every one dribble the ball at least once during this game. Who hasn't had a turn yet?" And so on , and so forth.

It might be a good thing to let the assignor or trainer know that this ref has some things to work on, but you don't say it like, "This ref cost my little Susie that game". The wording is, "How do you want your refs to handle such and such a situation? What is the rule about such and so?" Listen, listen, listen. Then the responst is, "Well you might want to talk to #39. I"m not sure he has that concept fully down-loaded yet." ANd that's it. Nothing else. The more you say, the less the assignor will listen.

Lastly, (yea, I'm a preacher in my spare time!) you really need to learn how to handle it when your daughter loses, and you need to teach her how to handle it. Do you know how many basketball games Michael Jordan lost in his lifetime? I don't know the exact number, but it's way more than half the games he played. MORE THAN HALF!!!! Nobody wins all their games. Anyone that does, never learns, never grows, never improves. Please do everyone around you a favor and find a way to get past the Little League Mom stuff. It's definitely not good parenting.

Hopper and Rainmaker..Thank you for the advice. Both points taken. Some people just handle themselves better than others, thanks for being those people.

JRutledge: Why are you so nasty? Did I ever say my daughter was going to the WNBA? Did I ever say that she was some kind of superstar?

I am having fun with you, because you really believe what you say. You really think that something significant is going to be done at a 4th grade game. I did not call you names or say anything vulgar to you. I think you do not have perspective one what life is really about and your kids are not going to learn the necessary lesson from this situation. If the score is 6 to 4, not sure what the officials could have done. That means no one is putting the ball and the basket. And at that level I am not surprised that is a problem.

Now when your kid gets to Tennessee, give us all a call and tell us how much this game really affected your child's life.

Peace

I find it interesting that a man as important as Rut has posted half a dozen times on a thread about 4th grade basketball, and even more interesting that the theme of his posts are that 4th grade basketball doesn't really matter anyhow.

You had blatantly one-sided officiating in the state tournament? What state was this? Are you saying that the person in charge acknowledged that it was one-sided? If so, what happened?

Do not presume to know me by 9 comments I have made on a message board. Im sick of you slamming fourth grade teams. Let me tell you something Darling, They all have to start somewhere. I also noticed how many times you have replied to things, you are a busy man. Seems like maybe you do more officating from your computer chair than anywhere else.
To those who have helped, there was only one offical that night so I will take your advise and talk to the director. Off night or not maybe they can bring it to his attention, then we all benefit.

[Edited by momstwo on Jan 19th, 2006 at 02:17 AM]

This is a theory, but perhaps one official is a huge part of your problem. I have called more games at this level than most people would do at gunpoint, and I promise you that a 6-4 game where many of the points were free throws was probably kinda like a wrestling match. These games are very difficult to call with 2 officials. Is it possible that the other team was bigger/more physical than your team? At this age, (and older) the more you do, the more you get away with. Possibly the other team was not as well coached, and the coached encouraged their extreme aggressiveness. There are many possibilities, but I think a biased ref in this case is not the most likely.

Still sorting this out....Who were the complaints made to, and when? Did you think complaints during the game would change the way it was called? The other team had a problem because too many calls were in their favor?
Please explain.

I did not realize that there were restrictions on certain topics. Maybe when I decide to respond to the next post, I will ask you for your opinion.

Do not wait up too late for that one.

Peace

Okay Im taking a big risk here, but the other team was not bigger, yes I will concede a little more aggresive. I would not have been so upset if they were not so obvious. Im sure you read my previous thread that said there was a young person on the clock, jump balls went to the opposite team 4 times before it was figured out that he wasnt changing the poss. The other team was going over the backs of our girls while they were shooting and taking the ball, they were crossing middle court and taking the ball from our point guard, no fouls. These are the kind of things that I was trying to talk to everyone about but noticed immediatly that people were angry with me so I didnt bother going into specifics. Yes one offical could have been a big part of the problem. Also this is a complex where 6 games were going on at once. Lots of noise and whistles.

Yes, the other teams parents were also complaining and making comments. One of the other parents asked to just have someone come and oversee what was going on with the young man and also the ref. He never made it to the court. We were not complaining at the ref.

If you do not want comments, than this is the wrong place for you. You should never come to the internet on any discussion boards, especially at a place to b!t#h about officials when you know nothing about it.

I usually only officiate 3 days out of a week and this is a typical off day. Not many of the games I work play on Wednesday.

Once again, get over it. I am sure there was no big write up in the paper or something about this big time game. You know the game where someone is betting so much money on that they have to fix the game so your kid can lose. Man, you might want to check your daughter's teammates for possible point shaving. You know the girl that held the ball so all night so your team could not score those final two big time points. Man, that game must have been a barn burner.

Peace

Rut, what are you still doing up? Hit the button below and hit me with an email. I have some non-basketball business questions for you.

What were the complaints from the other side? Unless they were saying "Boy, this guy is calling badly in our favor,"
your argument of the calling being one-sided is flawed.
An old saying in this business: "As long as both sides complained,(and they usually do) then everything is all right."

An inexperienced ref will hear comments and get really defensive and will sometimes subconsciencly penalize the kid for their parent's behavior. So if the parents are riding him, he may go out of his way to not give in and not give them any close calls. Then it looks like he is biased.

Bottom line is : parents take it WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and should just let the kids play and the referee do his job and it will be fair.


Funny thing is, the kids will lose a game on a bad call and five minutes later they want to give you a hug and ask when you will be back to work their game! The parents will hold a grudge forever. I guess that is why I like kids better than adults!

Also, I never think working a 4th grade game is below me. I like to watch kids as they learn the game and get better. Bad parents can really take the fun out of it though.

Rut: Your a Jerk! I dont know why you insist on being a horses behind! My daughters game was important to HER!!! Im sorry she is only in fourth grade and you have something against that. But get a life. Im done with you, go get off in a corner somewhere. Your opinions are useless to me. I hope your career falls flat on its face and you get to officate over nothing but 4th grade girls, they could teach you a thing or two about class.

Just another ref: ...When they werent changing poss the other teams parents were trying to tell them too.

Lady....

You need to take a chill pill and drop it.

I find it unbelievable that you've spent as much time as you have seeking out an internet forum for referees, and then venting your spleen over your 9 YEAR OLD'S basketball game - officiated by one person, likely with limited experience, and is just getting their feet wet.

Did they miss some calls - I guarantee they did. Let me ask you this - did your kid's team make all their shots that night? :rolleyes:

Get a grip. The time you wasted here could have been spent teaching your daughter about sportsmanship, the spirit of the game, and keeping sports in its proper perspective.

You are getting mad right? You have found the reason. I am not trying to help you do anything. You are a parent that needs to get a grip and understand it is just a game. There was a time in this country when kids went out and played these sports on their own and some of the greatest players came from that era. Parents like you make a mockery of these sports and why many kids do not want to play anything by the time they reach HS because you think this is all about you. I might be a jerk, but I do not have kids and making their lives miserable because you are acting like a jerk in front of your kids. You know how many times I have had little kids comment about the behavior of the adults at their games. When I was in Little League as a kid, my coach and the opposing coach got into a fight. All the players on both teams just thought it was sad by the behavior of the adult and how they were acting like children. You are doing the same. Report everyone you want to, but I can tell you no one is really going to care because someone is going to use those games as a training ground for newer officials. That is what that will always be no matter how mad and upset you get. I find your attitude as funny. You will never understand that no one really cares that is why you have been getting hammered about this issue. :D

Peace

Mom,

For new and young officials, keeping track of alternating posessions can be one of things that can be very difficult. There's a lot going on in the game and unless the scorekeeper has a posession arrow or the ref is really good at using the rubber-band-around-alternating-wrists trick, you'll often get one team getting the ball two, three or even four times in a row. And if the scorekeeper isn't good at helping the ref (if they have a posession arrow), then that could cause problems as well.

The other thing that can happen is that the referee might make a call but not signal it very well, causing confusion by the fans over whether the alternating posession rule comes into play.

It just sounds like the youngster who was refereeing was in over his head. Most basketball games have at least two and often three referees. One newbie alone can become overwhelmed pretty quickly.

I would just chalk this up to a bad day and let it go. None of us want to see our kids cheated out of something, but this can be used as a character building lesson in what to do on the court when you feel like things aren't going your way.

Guaranteed, if your child keeps playing, they'll have games like this once in awhile. Tell your child, "Sometimes you have to play better than the other team and overcome the other circumstances in the game as well." That could be officiating, the other coach yelling like a howler monkey, rabid parents screaming from the stands, a smelly defender, a ball that feels too flat, a gym that has no room on the sidelines, a defender who's quicker or bigger or more aggressive, teammates who aren't as good as you or ball hogs, etc.

(P.S. JRutledge is a little prickly. Don't take it personally.)

I do not think it is I that is prickly. I am not getting mad about a game that is played by an 8 or 9 year old. ;)

This just shows why games at this level should be banned and the only games kids should play are in the backyard or in the driveway while they are at this age. Adults just ruin the experience. Maybe that is why our children are getting fatter and not playing outside like they did when most of us were at those ages.

Peace

Mom,

Welcome to the board :) I admire your courage, calm and persistence. We don't get a lot of civilians here. When we do, they're inevitably here to whine about how some official cost their team a game, elicit proof that some official cost them the game, or win a bet made during some lunch-time pickup game. Such people are usually run out of Dodge.

But as a parent of young kids, one of whom, my oldest, began playing basketball in 4th grade last year, I'd be a little upset too if my daughter came off the floor bleeding and bruised. It doesn't take a rules expert to tell when a game is getting out of hand.

Just some random thoughts for you.

First, I doubt the officiating was deliberately lopsided. It is entirely possible that the official was poorly trained and in over his head. You might think that it would be easier to do a good job on a little kids game than on say a high school game. But the truth is that 4th grade basketball is really, really hard to get right. There are sooooo many violations, so little skill, so little predicability and so many bizarre things that happen all the time. It's almost cruel that we make officials start at that level and earn their way up to easier to call games.

Second, somebody hired the ref, and you might be able to talk to that person. Take rainmaker's advice on that. The best possible outcome from talking to the assigner is that the official would receive the necessary training. As has been stated, it's hard to get good officials to work at that level. The pay stinks, the level of play is terrible and many of the parents are overbearing pains in the ***. Any official at that level who is any good will soon move on to where the pay is better, the play is better, and ... well, the parents stay about the same ;) The reality is the official is probably going to be some high school kid working for minimum wage.

Third, if you get no joy with the assigner, look around for another league to put your daughter in. If enough parents do this, the league is going to have to do something to stem the tide.

Fourth, if you want something done right, sometimes you have to do it yourself. If good officiating at that level is important to you, and you can't find it anywhere, then pick up the gauntlet and don the stripes. A lot of good officials got their start because they looked at some hapless fool in stripes and thought "I could do better," and then did.

Fifth, the point has been beaten to death, but this is fourth grade basketball. In my daughter's league there was no clock, no score kept and no officials. The two coaches called what needed calling from the sideline to keep the game moving along. That fact that people really care who wins or loses a fourth grade basketball game is patently absurd. The only two questions I ever asked my daughter after the game were: "Did you have fun?" and "What did you learn this week?" What else matters?

Rut: Thats what I was waiting for..I knew it would come out eventually. Good for you! Now we all know your problem is with children and they "shouldnt be allowed". Sad Sad Man!!! I guess you would really be ticked if I told you I have one on the 5th grade boys team. Oh no another unwanted player..lol You are a funny one my friend.

Back in the Saddle: Thank you for your advice. No its not the WNBA but you have a child that played 4th grade last year, you know how much fun they have and when something like this happens, its upsetting to them. Now I have some great info from some great people on here and I will definetly share it with her. Thanks again

Hooper: You have been great!! Thanks for being a decent human being, I know its hard for others but I guess Ill just have to look past RUT!!

[Edited by momstwo on Jan 19th, 2006 at 03:57 AM]

At lower level games, 6th grade and below, I wish we could assign two parents....one from each team to videotape the game...and they are the only ones allowed to attend. Then we could have fun, the kids would have fun...and the parents could get together later and watch the video and gripe about the refs on their own time! It would save a lot of hassle and stupidity.

Okay just to clarify...I GOT THE POINT!!!! Now you can all move on to bigger and more exciting things! Thanks for the help and criticism.

Momstwo,

I watched my daugther play AAU for five years and coached my sons AAU team for another five. I wasn't a coach that was always on the officials but, I did my share of questioning officials' calls.

I wanted to stay close to the kids and basketball because I enjoyed it so much. I have been officiating for the last three years. I wish I would have taken the steps to get certifide prior to my coaching. I know that I would have been a better coach. I actually know the rules now. I now watch my son in High School from the stands. I have a very different prospective now. I can't tell you how many times I have turned to one of my fellow parents who was questioning a call and say "well he is right".

Sure officials make mistakes. We are human. I sincerely believe that 99.9% of those who wear the stripes and are certifide are trying thier level best to get it right.

I love the game and it can be a great teaching tool for kids. It can teach them about life. How to win and how to lose. How to work hard and take instruction.

My advice would be to not let an inexperienced elementary school official cause you to lose sleep. Better days ahead.

IMHO

dknick78

[Edited by dknick78 on Jan 19th, 2006 at 09:10 AM]

Thanks for the memories
 

My apologies for not contributing anything to this particular thread, but I just thought I'd say this:

This thread is a microcosm of The Official Forum and I was thoroughly entertained by it. A parent/fan without perspective; the fun being had at that parent/fan's expense; the genuine attempts to help by the eternal optimists; Rut; the reactions to Rut; and the unveiling, quite a ways into the thread, of the dreaded but seemingly inevitable "over the back" complaint. I may think of more later, but about the only two things missing were an actual rules question and a picture of a squirrel. Great stuff.

You're right. Mom- these have all been things we wanted to say to parents on the court but we are professional and walk away.

Without seeing the "tape" I'll be this offical missed alot of calls like:

1. Over the back
2.High dribble/ that's a carry
3. They're reaching in
4. That's a kick
5. The ball hit the top of the backboard- out of bounds
6. You can't slide on the floor with the ball- travel!
7. The ref made the call that cost us the game!

If you are as interested as you say, pick up a rule book, From you're post it doesn't appear you have. Then search this site for rule myths.

I have coached girls this age. They are not incontrol of their bodies yet. They have long nails and push and shove alot. The scrathes and blood are part of the game. I would bet that if you checked the girls on the other team they have the same scratches and bleeding. There is no way 1 official will see that happen. Besides it is an accident and calling 100 fouls won't stop it.

Take this as a learning experence and then teach your girls to make lay ups. 2 made lay up and you wouldn't have posted here.

Momstwo:

Been doing Youth League work for a lot of years. some positive advice:

1. Get involved. Volunteer. Our YMCA Youth League use to pay volunteer parents to attend Ref Schools. Leagues that use Refs without training often have trouble with Safety. There is a League in town that uses HS kids. The Youth Games get too rough in my opinion for young children with untrained HS kids reffing.

2. Once you know the Rules. You'll be able to Coach better. You mentioned an Uneven Foul Count as a beef. There's nothing inherently wrong with an uneven foul count. Many times it's a reflection of Coaching. Unless a Coach teaches their kids not to hand-check and to screen correctly....your Team will pick-up a lot of unnecesary fouls that may look unfair to the untrained fan.

3. Don't get the kids worked up about the officating in any case. At that age they don't care...UNLESS the parents make a big deal out of it.

It was reasons similar to how this post has turned out that the Community Club League stopped keeping score for divisions under 11 years old. Now the kids just go out and play to learn the game. Parents volunteer to keep time and teh coaches are allowed on the floor to help the kids with positioning and movement. 1 referee is all we ever need for these games because s/he basically is there to start the game and inbounds the ball.

[Edited by SmokeEater on Jan 19th, 2006 at 10:26 AM]

You wouldn't really wish that on the 4th grade girls, would you?

Just another ref: No! Actually I wouldn't. I was just tired of him slamming the younger teams. I had a really hard time trying to hold my tongue and just accept what everyone was saying, but being told that no one cares about the 4th grade teams was getting a little old. I believe the truly good officals care about all the teams the WNBA and the Peewee teams. No matter what the answer was I read them ALL, and appreciate the input. I wanting to let you know I was linked to this site off of the site for the complex where my daughter played, It was totally made in error. I was hoping to speak with the offical who officated the game and not "attack" him but ask him about the game. I dont see why that should be a problem.
Once again thank you for being so polite and Im sorry if I sound snotty or rude to the other people on here, I just dont like being accused of being a "bad parent". As I said before Im not a trouble maker in the stands. I just didnt know it was such a crime to question a refs calls.
For those of you that just smelled fresh blood....I know I know "pick up a rule book" "pick up whistle" No need to get into that again. Got that 70 something comments ago.

Never ever go looking for an official after a game. Nothing good can come from it. A smart official will NOT talk to you! A bad one will and it always turns out bad. And the bottom line is the coach loses. You get labeled as a trouble maker and a problem. No matter what happened in the game- if you go looking for an official, even "just to talk", it is you who can't let it go. These convesations always start out "i have a question" and turn into questioning an officials judgement.

Is this your vote for who's behind the mom troll?

I think (not speaking for him, I wouldn't presume to do so) the point Rut is trying to make is that many, including me, do not believe 4th graders need to be in competitive games. They do not, in most cases, possess the physical abilities or skills needed to play an actual game of basketball. I am not a believer in having these types of players put into a competetive environment. They have not had the practice to prepare them for such an environment. I think rather than have games with officials, scorers, and fans, why not have an open gym with some scrimmage time? Bring in coaches and some actual officials (if available) to help teach the game. Let them learn and practice the skills without winning and losing coming into play. Every official I've ever talked to says that sportsmanship gets worse the lower you go as far as levels. I believe this is because fans and coaches expect the game to look like what they see in a high school gym or in a college game on TV. That is simply impossible due to the skill level of the players. I think leagues such as this take the fun out of the game. I learned to play by playing. We played pick up games all day long. If you won, great, if you lost...well, you played harder the next game. You did not have parents complaining that you lost because an official was one-sided. You lost because the other team played better. I think with all of the lower level leagues forming, the players don't learn to enjoy the game for what it is...a game.

Then go away and you will not have to worry about it. I know when I was a kid I did not live for that level of ball and I cannot tell you what those games were like or what the score was. If it is getting old to you, go away and teach your kid things that will really shape their life.

You can believe all you want. The reality is most officials that have any experience do not go around worrying about the outcomes of JH games. I belong to 3 different official's groups, we do not spend our time talking about PeeWee games (in any sport actually). The WNBA does not have a problem with officials caring or not caring about that league, the general public does not care about the league. Most officials here do not care about what goes on in the NBA.

Are you going to jail? I do not recall that anyone is prosecuting with a crime.

Many of us are having fun at your expense. I know I am. You come here creating a game that rivals a soccer score as if there was some nefarious reason for the officials to not do the right thing. I find it funny when parents like you really think we all care that your kid lost a game. Most kids lose games at some point. They are not going to slit their wrists over the tragic event. If you were a responsible parent, you would teach your kid that they are going fail more times than they will succeed. When they fail they should take lessons from it and learn so the next time they are prepared and can have a better chance to be successful in the long run. Instead you have made this about the officials or someone else other than where the responsibility should fall. Let the kids have fun and stop making these games about someone else. You probably never played a game your entire life and you are now traumatizing your kid by not letting them have a little fun. The game is supposed to be fun. Life is supposed to be fun. I know this thread is fun.

Peace

Ok, ok, my turn...momstwo, I have three sons, and all three of them play sports - mostly football (one in High School, the other two still on Youth teams)...I am also a ref (and I know that some discount that because I do NCAA Women's ball instead of Men's) so my wife and I have always had a rule with our sons - they ALWAYS shake the official's hand and tell them "Thank you, sir/ma'am) after every game...and while we have had discussions about bad calls in the car on the way home, because my kids shook their hands, they realized that those refs were people, and people make mistakes, and there is really NOTHING they or their parents can do about that except play harder the next game. That's the bottom line...

All you 9 year old kids out there, go look up the word insufferable in the dictionary.

I'm just wondering when everybody is gonna figure out that Mummy really is a troll- just a-yanking their little chains away.

Mummy has been constantly posting since 10pm est. last night- all through the whole night- and Mummy was still posting at 10am est this morning. If Mummy <b>really</b> had kids, Mummy would sureashell need to get some sleep. Mummies get tired playing Mummy all day long. Mummies then have to get up and get the little sh!ts dressed, fed and off to school,etc. Unless Mummy was a speed freak, I don't think that Mummy really is a Mummy.

Mummy is one fine, world-class troll.

Good job, Mummy. Change your name and come back again sometime. This has been amusing as hell. :D

Consider the source and ignore/forget about it, Rocky. Waste of time.

Not me, rock. I hope my "edgy" comments didn't give you that impression.

I can't believe it......I got hosed along with everybody else.....sob...

This was fun but now its not. TROLL what a dipsh!t. Speed freak..Whatever! I wasnt on all night. But okay heres my final comments to all the idiots on this site who are rude and disrespectful. GET A LIFE YOURSELF!!! Your "holy than thou" complex is a little old. You make mistakes own up to and go on and do what your paid to do. Make fair calls and remember whos padding your pockets, cause if some of you are not to old to keep up you'll be seeing our fourth graders soon. Lots of Love and May you be blessed with the same type of pleasantness that you give to others.
RUT: When you have children look me up THEN AND ONLY THEN will I even consider you opinion.

We are not holier than thou, we just are trained understand the game of basketball better from an officials point of view. As I said earlier, we never heard any specifics. Without specific plays, you sound (even if you claim you're not) like a disgruntled parent putting too much emphasis on winning and losing in a lower level game featuring players that should be learning the game, not learning to blame others for a loss.

Why would I call you? You are the worst example of a parent. I have plenty of better role models around me and you are not one of them.

Peace

Wow. I think everyone needs to lighten up a little. This thread has gotten way out of hand.

I learned the hard way - NEVER ARGUE WITH PARENTS (FANS)! You can NEVER win. That philosophy has once again been proven accurate.

No, no, no...it was someone else in a different thread. Us short guys gotta stick together!

Us short guys gotta stick together! [/B][/QUOTE]Chuck sez that the feeling is mucilage.

This might be the most worthwhile post in all 7 pages of this thread.

A few years ago, I was doing a middle school league championship and since I had quite a few varsity games under my belt, I wasn't going to take any crap from the parents. About half way through the first quarter after they yelled at every call that went against them I said "we'll ref the game thank you" One of the parents fires back "when you gonna start then??" Ouch!!

I learned after that, not a say anything.

I played a lot of sports as a kid, hockey, baseball, basketball, football, soccer, touch football.

I can't remember a thing about the officals in any of them.

Don't remember the coaches either except for one.

I have trophies and badges that say we won championships but I don't remember those either.

So what do I remember:

1) Being part of the on field opening ceremonies as part of some international soccer competition in Montreal.

2) Striking out 17 in a baseball game.
(only way to get them out that day)

3) Scoring two goals in a 15-1 blowout hockey game
(scored one of them into my own net)

4) Being knocked unconcious twice in hockey, once in softball.

5) Being cut from the high school hockey tryouts.
(apparently you need some talent)

6) Several unpleasant incidents in Hockey involving other players.

7) My very last plate appearance in baseball. And the night spent in emergency that followed.

What I mostly remember was that it was fun. My dad was supportive, never had a bad word to say about anyone.


Frankly the kids want to play. The very last thing they want is to listen to adults shout and argue. I have heard that personally from enough of them.

Now this isant fair JCrow I am a highschool ref and work with them. I have been told by most of the adult patched guys that i work with that I am a good ref and they tell me to persue higher levels. The league I work in does train us tho. Every ref goes thru a 4 hour rules course, and all work with experienced guys until they prove they can handle themselves. It is okay to use highschool guys I believe by me reffing now I am gonna be that much better by the time I am in college and go searching for JV games and hopefully Varsity games

I think it's sad that topics like this one are addressed this way, but, on the other hand, I can understand it.

I don't officiate; I'm still in high school and I play. I have played and watched hundreds of games, and everyone knows that officials are often - nearly always - criticized. It's usually wrong and unfair. I know officials and looking at it from their perspective, one can understand what kind of job this is.

As for the original question: I don't think anyone can expect world-class officiating in 4th grade games. When I was in the 4th grade, the officials were all 17- or 18-year old volunteers. We didn't complain. Kids want a court, a coach, teammates, and a ref to go ahead and play basketball.

However, I think it's unfair to minimize a 4th grade game. Most of the posters here officiate high school and college games, which are obviously considered more important. The difference is that a college game appeals more to fans; but when you are 9 years old, there is nothing more important than that game. Sure, you will get young and inexperienced refs in 4th grade games, but they should still give it their best, for the kids' sake.

I also have very rarely - probably never - seen a "one-sided" game. Most of the time, officials who are officiating a poor game are doing so in general. From my point of view I don't see what a referee could personally gain from favoring either team, at least at a 4th grade level.

The key, however, to all of this is that although I have found this to be a very insightful community, it is too often marked by officials who are just being jerks because they're tired of hearing complaints. I know it sucks to be criticized all the time, especially when it's criticism from uninformed parties, but there's nothing to gain in being jerks.

I would never minimize the importance of a 9 yr old's basketball game. It is VERY important to the kid. The winning and losing part though is usually only important to the over-competitive parent. The kid just wants to play and have fun and go to Sonic after the game and get ice cream!

Good Post about "Jerks". And good luck in your HS Career.

I still remember my son (23 now) at the 4th Grade Level of play. Whether his Team won or lost......in two or three days he "remembered" that they won! And that he got 20 points! It's great to be 10 years old.