A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket.

Does the basket count because A1 was still in the act of shooting, or does the ball become dead in this case when the ball is knocked loose from A1's control?

Rule reference if you have it, please!

" The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket."

The ball touching the floor is just one way the try ends. It also ends when it's certain the throw is unsuccessful. The shot ended when he lost control of the ball.

4-41-4
The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

I don't get what you are saying. You just explained what has to happen for a try to end and in this case none of those are present. The kid regains possession in midair therefore it is NOT certain that the try has ended, and since he ragains in midair and is still considered in the act of shooting he can finish the play. This is just like a kid going in for a lay-up, getting hit on the arm, fumbling the ball and still putting it in the hole.

Count the basket and shoot one FT.

The ball is dead when A1 loses it.

Let's say that A1 drives, gets fouled by B1, the shot goes up and B2 blocks it and it goes back to A1 who shoots it AGAIN, gonna count that one too?

Or A1 is fouled, releases the ball and A2 puts it in, is that a good basket and one?

A try ends when it is <b>certain</b> that it won't go in, by rule(4-19-4). When A1 grabbed the ball again after it was knocked out of his hands, it sureasheck was certain that the first try couldn't go in; iow the <b>original</b> try ended at that point. The ball also became dead when that try ended because of the foul. When A1 put it up again, he was putting a dead ball in the basket.

And yes, if a kid going in for a lay-up is hit on the arm, fumled the ball and then shot after recovering the fumble, that throw with a dead ball is <b>no</b> good either. His original "try" ended with the fumble caused by the foul.

Completely wrong interpretation, RefTN. Gotta know those definitions.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 14th, 2006 at 04:10 PM]

Sorry NBA rule.

Huh? Tony listed the FED rule, you quoted it and said he was wrong, but you were thinking of the NBA rule? Seems strange, but ...

What is the NBA rule on this?

Let's back up and define the correct terms.

First of all, remember what consitutes how the foul will be deal with: that would be "act of shooting." The "act of shooting" is not dependant upon the definition of "try", as it could be a "tap" as well. The act of shooting begins with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight... (4.41.1)

Notice, it didn't say, "ends when the try ends." Thus, when the try ends isn't relevent for this exercise.

You have to ask yourself, "was the ball clearly in flight"? If he can still grab it, I'd say "no," thus he's still in the act of shooting and if the ball goes in, count the basket and award one shot. This is going to be a tough sell, but you must choose your words carefully. "Coach, he was still in the act of shooting." Besides, for this to happen, it will happen so fast that I don't think it will be questioned.

The situation on a blocked shot coming back to A is a case of the ball clearly being in flight. Thus, the act of shooting had ended and it isn't applicable to this discussion.

In flight means OUT OF THE HANDS.

Lah me.

Howinthe heck can you say the ball was <n>not</b> clearly in flight when the original post said that <b>"the foul causes the ball to come OUT of A1's hands"</b>?. The "act of shooting" ended with the ball in flight. Rule 4-41-1 sez so, as you cited yourself above. How can you possibly say that he's still in the act of shooting then?

You're contradicting yourself, Tex. You're also completely wrong if you'd count that basket. If he grabs the ball that's knocked loose and puts it up again, he's now in his <b>second</b> act of shooting and his <b>second</b> try.

Here is a play from the NBA casebook.

Player A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and the ball becomes loose. Player A1 is able to continue his shooting motion after being fouled and the basket is successful. Should 2 points be scored?

Ruling: Yes. Player A1 is credited with 2 points and will attempt one FT. Any player who can score a basket in the same motion after being fouled and having the ball knocked loose shall be credited with the basket.

Now that I think about it and after hearing Tex. I am counting this basket. whether it be any level.

Jurassic it is just hard to believe that if a kid gets hit while in his habitual shooting motion for a lay-up, and fumbles the ball that you are not counting it if he regains it and finishes the shot.

Jurassic it is just hard to believe that if a kid gets hit while in his habitual shooting motion for a lay-up, and fumbles the ball that you are not counting it if he regains it and finishes the shot. [/B][/QUOTE]RefTN, I find it very easy to believe that <b>you</b> would count it. :D

Loose or "out of his hands" does not necessarily equal "clearly in flight." What if the ball goes in a downward motion rather than up? In addition, the "act of shooting" definition includes the airborne shooter. The AS, by definition (4.1.1-2), is a player who has released the ball on a try...and has not returned to the floor AND is considered to be in the act of shooting. Thus, one could argue that as long as he's in the air, he can touch the ball an indefinite number of times and is still in the act of shooting.

There's nothing I stated that was even remotely contridictory.

:rolleyes:

You need to review the rule book.

Then it is a try that is clearly not going in, and thus a dead ball.

You are mixing completely irrelevant rules trying to apply it to this situation. The airborne shooter is not in the rules for continuous motion nor what constitutes a try, it is only for contact on or by A1 AFTER a try has been released.

I'd call that a MAJOR contradiction.;)

>>You need to review the rule book. <<

I have. I challenge you to find a specific rule that disputes what I said.

>>The airborne shooter is not in the rules for continuous motion nor what constitutes a try, it is only for contact on or by A1 AFTER a try has been released.<<

10.6 (Penalty) 2: "One free throw is fouled IN THE ACT OF SHOOTING and two- or three- point try or tap is successful."

5: "Fouled in the ACT OF SHOOTING and try or tap is unsuccessful:..."

There is a rules difference between the "act of shooting" and a try or a tap. You can't just merge them into one act or idea. The rule doesn't say, "fouled on a try or a tap", it says, "fouled in the act of shooting." Thus, "act of shooting", and not try, is the key term.

Now, the definition of "Act of shooting" says, in part, that it INCLUDES the airborne shooter. There's nothing in the definition of airborne shooter that says it deals ONLY with contact after a released try, thus you can't assume as much. Besides, even if it were true, the "act of shooting" -- which is the key phrase -- ends when the ball is "clearly in flight". If you were correct, there would be no reason to define specifically when the act of shooting ended, or make it different from when a try ended. Finally, the ball isn't dead until the AS returns to the floor (6-7-exception).

Please support your assertions with rules citations like I did if you are going to dispute this. As stated, nothing I said was contridictory. You may think its wrong, but that doesn't make it contridictory -- even if you are correct.

RULE 4 SECTION 1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER

ART. 1 . . . An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.

ART. 2 . . . The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting.


RULE 4 SECTION 11 CONTINUOUS MOTION

ART. 1 . . . Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

ART. 3 . . . Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.


RULE 4 SECTION 41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP

ART. 1 . . . The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.For purposes of contact on or by said player.


ART. 2 . . . A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

ART. 3 . . . The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

ART. 4 . . . The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

ART. 5 . . . A tap for goal is the contacting of the ball with any part of a player's hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket.

ART. 6 . . . A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as in 5-2-5.

ART. 7 . . . The tap starts when the player's hand(s) touches the ball.

ART. 8 . . . The tap ends in exactly the same manner as a try.

Game, set, and match.


[Edited by blindzebra on Jan 14th, 2006 at 10:34 PM]

I think BZ gave all the relevant rules for this case.

Summing up: airborne shooter is in the act of *A* try, not an infinite number of tries. When it's clear his 1 try is not going in the play is dead on the whistle, barring a PC foul that is.

Little bit of advice for you...take it fwiw or forget it.... your choice.

Obviously you don't believe the answers you're getting here, or the rules citations accompanying those answers. You might be wise to touch base with your local rules interpreter on this one and get his ruling. Then you can argue with him if he tells you something other than what you believe.

Btw, you're still wrong, but it's a waste of time to argue it further.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:14 AM]

love the thread by the way. I just have never seen a ref wave off a basket because the player got hit on the arm causing the ball to fumble in the player's hand, and while still in the air he finishes the shot. I have still never seen a ref do this and I have been around the game for a long time. I would love to hear a story if somebody has one, because I know most the guys on here have been around a lot longer than I have.

Yes, I've seen it.

Yes, I've waved it off...correctly...the ball went about 2 feet straight up and the kid grabbed it in put it in.

blindzebra can you please point me in the direction of which or as many of those citations that you used that says just because a ball is fumbled in the player's hand that it doesn't constitute him still being an airbone shooter, or in continous motion when he gets fouled.

and by the way you gave the kid two shots when he got fouled, right?

The original play says the ball clearly LEFT the player's hand(s). The burden of proof is in your court.

Where do you draw the line?

Is a ball moving slightly on a player's hand the same as a ball that goes completely away? If not what is the cut off? An inch? 6 inches? 1 foot? 3 feet?

I might also point out that the NBA case play says regains control in the SAME motion, which I read as the ball becomes loose but does not get away from the shooter's hands.

For me it would be almost impossible to see a ball become loose but stay in contact with the shooter's hands, but it is pretty obvious if the ball is completely out of the shooter's hand(s) and then repossessed.

Yes, I waved it off and gave the kid 2 shots. After the report all I had to say to the coach was, "It was a rebound that went in, after the foul."

Did not hear another word about it from the coach.

Let us focus on the phrases: "customary arm movement" and "usual foot or body movement." If a player gets whacked while "in the act of shooting" then loses the ball, even very briefly, recovers it in mid-air, and puts it in the basket, this play would not seem to fit the descriptive terms customary or usual.

The player in this situation is still an airborne shooter until he lands- R4-1-1. That isn't relevant to his "continuous motion" however. The shooter's "continuous motion" <b>ended</b> when the ball was clearly in flight- as per R4-11-1. When he recovered the ball, he started <b>another</b> second, separate try along with a second accompanying "continuous motion" associated with that separate try.

Yup, it's gotta be 2 shots on the original foul. The ball didn''t go in on <b>that</b> try.

1) Thanks, RefTN for teh NBA rule.

2) In addition to the rules JR(?) posted above, I think 6-7 Excp 3 applies, "The trying motion must be continuous.."

If it's not continuous, then the ball is dead and the subsequent "try" is with a dead ball.

IMO, if the official sees it as two separate acts (which is how I read the original play), then don't count the basket. If it's all one motion (all in the same direction), then count the basket.

Wow, Jurassic and BZ on the same side!!??!!??

I guess I don't need to wash the dishes tonight, cuz Jesus will be back before morning!

We are on the same side, a lot, he's just been grumpy because we got into it on another forum over continuous motion.;)