What do you guys want to happen when you give a coach a T? Do you want your partners to talk to them or tell them what they did to get the T? Do you want to tell them? Do you stay table side or go across? This is something that seems simple at first (to some people anyway) but can be an issue.

I had a situation in a game the other night and I'm wondering how people on this board feel about this. I will tell my story when I come back from beating my buddy in racquetball!

IMO every coach that I have ever T'ed up didnt need an explanation. They know why they were hit. If it were a direct comment made to you and only you and you turn and "tweet" T on the coach. Your partners probably have no idea why you just gave a T. However, two people do 1)you 2)coach...no need to explain.

However, if it's a T on a player or maybe the bench, I would then explain to the the coach why I am assesing a Technical Foul to #5 or bench. Good coaches want to know what #5 did to get a T and the good one will take extra measures to make sure it doesnt happen again.

We usually cover this in the pregame and it usually what happens is the official that calls the technical will administer the free throws. If this puts that official next to the bench for the throw-in, we will switch and he will also take the ball out of bounds. Generally, the non-calling official will remain near the half court line and observe the players and make sure nothing else happens.

I had a sophmore game Monday where my partner and I had 4 technicals for language on one team( 2 in the 1st Qtr). Coach was not helping a bit, more of a problem actually. I used the time that my partner was administering the throws to go over and remind the coach about what we covered on sportsmanship and asked him to help us out. It did get somewhat better, but he still seemed to think we were picking on his team.

I support the habit of reviewing the proceedure IN PREGAME regarding what you ask about.

We all agree that the "non" calling official approach the coach and give the seat-belt. Some firm, calm, very general behavior words might help here.

We will not encourage debate or discussion. The foul explaination is reported to the table. Any coach demanding a further explaination or discussion on a technical foul is just grand-standing and making matters worse.

The process needs to be handled quickly and efficiently so the attention can return back onto the game.

I think I can give you a very definite "It depends". In most cases if a coach earns a T, there are negative feelings, and the best thing to do is for the calling official to get away from the coach and let their partner come in to try and calm down the coach, take some of the heat, or give the next T if it's warranted. However, there have been instances where I have given the T, then stayed next to the coach and calmed them down a little. There was one instance where I was C, and had a player shoot a 3-point shot from the corner, in front of their bench. The defender turned to block out the shooter, and the shooter went to the floor. As I turned to go up court after the rebound, the coach was in front of me on the floor yelling why hadn't I called the foul. Easy T. After I report it, I go back over to him and explain I had watched the entire play, the contact was minimal, and his player did not go down because of the contact. In fact, it looked a lot like the player was trying to draw the call. He calmed down right away, gave me a somewhat mumbled apology, and admitted he didn't see the contact because he was watching the ball; he just looked over after the shot and saw his player on the floor. This was one of those instances where being able to talk to the coach right away may have prevented further problems.

It's just one of those "feeling" things - sometimes if you feel it can help the situation, then by all means talk to the coach. In most cases, it's usually a good idea to get away.

How did the racketball game go?

This is a good thing to pregame. My crew rotates away after a T. If you have time, you can let your partner know what they did so they can explain it if they need to. Luckily we haven't had to use this mechanic yet this season. Hopefully it stays that way.

I won 3 out of 4 because of superior agility! :D We normally play cut throat but our other partner couldn't play and he was talking trash.

Anyway, it was the second half when I gave the T. The coach was reacting to a call I made with his arms spread out, he was out of the box in front and then he waved me off even though I was reporting to the table. Remember, this was the second half, so when I went across to become the T the new C came trotting (I'm gritting my teeth) over to me and says something like, "tell me what he did so I can tell him." I told him to tell the coach that I would be over there in a few minutes, because of an inevitable rotation. Remember, it was the second half and HE HAD NO BUSINESS GOING INTO THE BACK COURT TO TALK TO THE COACH ANYWAY. So during the next timeout I tried to explain to him that I would tell the coach and at that time it was a no-win situation anyway. When I did rotate in front of the coach, I told him why he got the T (in a normal talking tone) and he said, "OK, I understand." All this was NOT confrontational and he was cool with it. We finished the game, there was some other screwed up stuff and they just thought it was a good game. :rolleyes: In the locker room, he told me that he wanted to know because he wanted to decide it he told the coach or not. Man, did I have the poker face working because that this point my jaw wanted to drop and I felt like yelling some expletives. I told him I will decide if I want the coach to know - I'm a grownass man and if I have the guts to call the T, I can tell him why. I went on to tell him that it is my pet peeve for someone to call a T and another official trotting over there to do what looks like console him. If the coach doesn't get the hint, he/she deserves the second one anyway. I also tried, in vain, to get him to understand that at the time there wasn't anything he could say to the coach that would have been good enough. The coach would/could have kept going and then he would have to make a decision to give him another one or walk away feeling like a chump. Just let him calm down and he will be more receptive to the reasoning, like it turned out. I still cannot believe that I called the T and he thought he would be the one to make the decision whether this guy got an immediate reason or not. That will be the day. By the way, this league does not have a seatbelt rule (Catholic league, their own rules) so nobody had to talk to him at all.

IMO, I don't want my partners near the coach in this situation. I don't want anyone speaking for me or giving their own interpretation of why I called a T. If it is necessary to tell the coach he must sit, I will tell him with a good distance (at least 8 feet) between us and then show him the backside so there is no impression of me getting right up next to him to console him. It burns me up when I see an official over there next to a coach after a T, doing everything except giving him a back rub. What are they saying, "yeah, I know that ref is a meanie, it will be all right." This is just my opinion, I could make up about 10 threads from this one game.

With the newer mechanic going table side, I do not see the point to go opposite table after I call a T. I also have yet to call a T on a head coach in the last few years that I can remember. I have called one on an assistant coach and I stayed table side and stood right next to the bench and no one said another word. When I work a basketball game I cannot avoid a coach all night. I never understood the logic behind getting away from a coach. I also do not like people to talk for me or explain things I have done. I am the person that made the call, I can explain it. I also do not like the attitude to get away on a 5th foul when I made the call.

I think we act as if we have run from people when we make hard choices. If a T is supposed to be like any other call, why do we treat this call so differently?

Peace

While I am more than happy to stand right in front of a coach after whacking him, I don't see what point it serves. He knows why he got it, we have a game to continue, and if he's gonna keep acting up after getting a T, it doesn't look good if I end up having to go all Valentine-on-Bobby Knight on him and give him another technical.

Administer the free throws and rotate opposite and then forget about it.

For the most part I agree with you. I will say this, it is a good thing when I T a coach and they aren't calm. I operate from the "wish" position and I don't think the coach would like the outcome if I stood there because I don't really believe in this philosophy about not giving a coach two (same official). If the coach is going directly at an official, that official should give the coach both T's if needed.
I can also understand the lack of need to T a coach up. They have to know and expect to get one if they act up. When they don't believe (fat meat's greasy) they should learn quick. The D2 assigner I work for has all the officials cocked and loaded as you walk through the door. The coaches know this so they don't act up as much as other leagues. He went so far as to say we should put one in our pocket for next time if a coach is acting up in a blowout. That was funny!

It's not like another call and those assignors and supervisors that say so are doing the avocation a great disservice. I don't get emotional on any other call. On the rare occasion I have to whack somebody, my mind isn't in the same place as during an illegal dribble.

The basic procedure I like is call it, get with partner(s) if we have multiple things...foul then T with FTs for both...get shooter(s) and administer, non-calling official seat belts coach.

I like the temp buffer of the non-calling official going over. It helps cool the situation. While we all like to say a T is just another call, it's not perceived that way from the one getting the T in most cases.

When my partner has the T, I'll notify and hang there for a few seconds, if the coach is venting in a calm manner, I'll let them for the duration of the FTs while my back is to them and I'm observing the other players.

If not, I'm calmly walking away and if the tirade continues, well we all know about the tag-team toss.;)

Here is what I am saying. A coach needs to get the hint when he is stuck. He or she obviously said something that got them in trouble. I know if I am in other situations I know what I am saying and why I am saying it. I do not need an explanation to tell me what I said was out of line or why someone reacted a certain way. On a basketball court (or any field or diamond) coaches know what they are saying and why they got in trouble. If they do not know what they did then they will eventually learn what they did after they get more experience as a coach.

I just think we treat a T so differently it does not make good sense. The call is not different than any other in the sense that it is a judgment by the calling official. When coaches realize that the call is just another call to us (in other words we do all the similar things as any other call mechanically) then they will stop making a bigger deal out of it themselves.

Peace

That is perhaps the most naive statement I have ever read.

Some coaches perceive ALL calls as personal, and a technical is like saying something about their mother.

It will NEVER be looked at as just another call.

Factor in that on violations you lose the ball, on fouls you might shoot free throws, but on intentional and technical fouls they shoot and get the ball back.

The very penalty within the rules set it apart from "just another call".

I realize you think it is naive to you. I have been officiating for 10 years in 3 sports (you could include softball for a 2 year period to make that 4 sports). What I have learned is when you treat an unsportsmanlike violation as such a major event, they coaches treat the calls as a major event. When you treat it as another call, they treat it as another call. In basketball we go away from coaches when we have been going to them all game long (at least in 3 man mechanic). I know when I have worked a wing in football and I throw an unsportsmanlike flag, I am not going to the other side of the field because I penalize the coach or a player. In many cases I have to stand there and deal with deal with their attitude and the coaches either adjust or they go home. 99% of the time they get over themselves and they stay in the game. I think coaches go on and on in basketball because we run from them when we have every right to stand up to them. I am primarily talking about HS coaches not other levels as well. College coaches in my experience deal with situations differently because the coaching is their livelihood. They know if they are not around and they lose they might not have a job at the end of the season if those loses add up.

Now I have not thrown out a basketball coach in about 8 or 9 years. I have not had to. I also do not run from them when I give a T (which is very rare for me too) and I talk to them when they are upset. I will not say that coaches have not gotten very upset, but I do not run from them or act as if they need to be "handled" to accomplish good sportsmanship. I have also been taught by many bigger time officials at camps to treat a T as any other call. That is something I have done from very early in my career and has worked for me very well ever since. I guess to each his own.

Peace

I've never had a coach whom I T'd up who didn't know exactly what they did and why they got it. I've never needed to explain it. If I give one to a player, that's different. I explain what they did and why it was a T. Never had a problem with it because all were clearly deserved. One thing though, is not to make a big dramatic production of it. Don't hold the T for a long time, act like you're breaking your fingers you hit it so hard, etc. Give it dispassionately, report it, and get on with the game.

Using your two middle fingers to make a T is frowned upon, as well.

Frowned upon by whom? I have not heard that from anyone that I have attended camp with. All I have heard is not to break your fingers when calling one. I do not think many care what you do after that for the most part. Maybe that is one of those things an evaluator says something when you are in front of them.

Peace

Two middle fingers, HELLO!:rolleyes:

How much sarcasm......
 

BZ,

Tell me what it takes to be perfect so I can be just like you. Since I am struggling to be a good official or to gain the vast respect that you have achieved, tell me what it takes to be like you? Since I have never worked any post season or worked any college ball, tell me what it takes to be like you?

Peace

Re: How much sarcasm......
 

Your response to Rich, pretty much sums up your posting history.

If anyone disagrees with you, you will go out of your way to find a contrary opinion. Half the time you won't even read what is there.

Rich could have said the sky is blue and you'd have said it isn't.

I'm surprised we did not get another I've been doing this for this long in this many sports resume post...oh wait, we did.

One colleague to another
 

Refs, good refs, try to help each other out. After all, we're all in this together. Sometimes, even less experienced refs have a contribution to make to more experienced refs. For what it is worth, Rut, I think after the "two middle fingers" part was pointed out, that might have been a good time to respond with: "Uh, my bad." Just trying to help a colleague.

Nice post, by the way, over in the "Keeping consistency" thread.

I'll admit that I use the 2 middle fingers, tap the palm of my open left hand on them ever so slightly. I still don't see what the big deal is, never been told not to do it this way.

Uh, my bad.

Re: Re: How much sarcasm......
 

I disagreed with Rich on the basis of what I thought he said, not as a personal issue. This is something I do know how to separate. I do not know Rich or you and I have never worked with either of you. Unlike you, I do not take things personally on this site. They are just discussions with people that are mostly nameless and faceless. I have had interactions with Rich outside of this forum only through email and passing along information because he lives just north of my state and we work for the same person in both football and basketball in one conference.

If I had called you naive you would have considered my comments as arrogant and out of line. I am a 10 year official. If you do something different than I do, then join the crowd. I can ask 10 different officials the same thing with different backgrounds and you might get 10 different answers or justifications for their answers. Lighten up (whatever your name is). This site is not about everyone agreeing with each other all the time or understanding where everyone is coming from. When I walk on the court I do not carry the same baggage that you carry and you do not carry the same baggage I do. I am sure we do not look the same (we are judged by our appearance) and are not perceived the same by the coaches we all deal with. For God’s sake we do not even work under the same kind of system and get assigned the same way (at least from what I remember you saying). I am sorry that you want constant agreement, but that is never going to happen with me or other people with people literally all over the world coming to this site. For one I am surprised that more people here did not take serious issue with what Tommy said in his original post after all the things I have read here from officials about giving out Ts on this site and the things I hear other officials that I actually get to meet and talk to face to face.

Relax man, it will be OK. ;)

Peace

Using your two middle fingers to make a T is frowned upon, as well. [/B][/QUOTE]Which is why I only use one middle finger for the "T" signal......

One colleague to another
 

Blindzebra, Rut makes a good point here. For what it is worth, if you respond to this, it might be a good place for: "Uh, my bad."

Re: One colleague to another
 

His comment was naive, and each and every post he makes is layered with arrogance, so saying something like that is naive would not lead to that assumption.

The two middle fingers would be the middle and ring finger, not the index and middle finger.

You must have a lot of dexterity to pull off a T with the actual MIDDLE fingers of one hand.

FYI, I took Rich's response to mean the middle finger on both hands coming together to signal a T.;)

Re: Re: One colleague to another
 

What do I say that is layered with arrogance? I say the very same things here that I say when dealing with "real officials." For some strange reason, no one I deal with in real life seems to have a problem with what I say. Why is it only people like you that have such a problem with what I say?

Peace

You must have a lot of time on your hands to come up with this horsesh!t.

Re: Re: Re: One colleague to another
 

Rut,
Don't write to me in that tone of print. :cool:
mick

LOL!!!
 

Anything for you Mick. ;)

Peace

you should never have to tell a coach why they got the "t". if they are raising heck, stay away from them and have your partner go tell them they lost their coaching box.

Re: Re: One colleague to another
 

For what it is worth, and it isn't worth much, you're falling into the same trap, Blindzebra, that Rut often falls into. When you say that "each and every post [Rut] makes is layered with arrogance," you simply are not telling the truth. Rut makes many posts, in many threads, that are gracious, insightful and valuable. Now it *is* true that Rut often makes posts that carry with it an arrogant tone -- even if he protests, unconvincingly, that he does not mean it that way. But your blanket characterization of him is just as inappropriate/unhelpful/wrong as the behavior for which you find reason to criticize him.

That's just my opinion, and I see that I'll not succeed in persuading either of you to say "oops" and move on, so I'll try to take my own advice and say: Oops, I've written too much here. It's time for me to move on.

So many times in print the tone and intent of the author is misconstrued.

I pretty much agree with Rut. I don't hand out Ts very often, but when I do, they are obviously earned. I try to talk things out, if possible, and don't have rabbit ears. I've gone whole years without more than one or two Ts. You MUST bust every player that deserves one, but I like to talk to coaches if possible.

This year, I had one or two earlier in the year, and both on players (slamming ball down, etc.). Last night, I had two simultaneous -- one on a player, and the other on an assistant 'coach' (if you want to call her that; she truly didn't have a clue about what was going on). The thing is, and other officials I've talked to about it this year agree, that coaches will usually shut up and coach after a technical and their team will be the better for it.

Last night's game was horrible -- one of the worst games I've ever worked, basketball wise. The team that got hit had scored 10 total at the time (late in the 3rd), yet scored 19 after the technicals. My point is that while I still recommend we all use the T judiciously, don't be afraid to use it early if its warranted. It could solve some problems for you and cause a better basketball game.

John,

Have you ever experienced a coach getting a T and then asking what he did to deserve it?
Have you ever experienced a coach asking what a player did to deserve a T and then come back and say the player didn't do what you said he did?
I agree, we shouldn't have to tell a coach. Unfortunately, I know that isn't the case in Arizona, Nevada, Maryland and DC. If I'm working a game in a conference with the seatbelt rule, my opinion is the appropriate person in my crew should tell the coach he/she must be seated, at a distance of at least 8 feet, and then show them the backside. In the league I work in where there isn't a seatbelt rule I don't think a non-calling official should say anything to the coach. Oh, in either situation I think, "coach he/she will be over in a few minutes and they can tell you" is appropriate. Nobody can explain why I give a T except me. If someone was to tell me they didn't think any answer is in order, I would readily agree with that. Although this is always my point of view, I will admit to being jaded this week due to a couple of crews I would call soft.

Being a guilty party and being a work in progress, I would hope we can focus on the basketball aspect of our opinions. We cannot accurately convey tone and delivery through typed words. We are already a different crowd just because we have the desire to do this anyway; there are a lot of strong personalities here.

What exactly do you say to the coach if your the non-calling official?

"You have lost your coaching box privilege"
- What if he/she doesn't know what this means?

"You have lost the right to stand."
- Not accurate because they can still stand during certain situations.

I would like to say something Short & Sweet to the coach and move on.

If it's the result of a direct "T" --> Coach, you may not use the coaching box because of the technical foul.

If it's the result of an indirect "T" --> Sorry,Coach. You may not use the coaching box because of the technical foul.

Re: Re: Re: One colleague to another
 

What you need to understand bgtg19 is that no matter what Rut says guys like BlindZebra will have a problem with it. It does not matter on way or the other what the comments are about or the topic. BlindZebra is going to find fault in the conversation. He is one of the many posters here that think everything they say is perfect or carries the right way. Rut writes the exact same way as many of these guys here and the same guys get upset when someone even thinks to say something to them. It does not matter what Rut's opinion is on this topic because he has the right to hold it. Then you get someone like BlindZebra and starts name calling because he has nothing better to do. Bgtg19 none of this is going to change that is what people do here.

PS2man

I've said the same thing...and then I was ganged up on. :D

I will be the first one to say, I'm not perfect or always right on this board, as an official and in life. I have actually learned some different points of view today by asking questions. Good stuff (rings)

At one time, I think I took Rut the wrong way and I finally realized he probably is just giving his opinions with as few keystrokes as possible. There is nothing really wrong with that. I will admit, I didn't have the same opinion of blindzebra because (embarassed) sometimes I get blindzebra and zebraman confused. :D I'm bad with names sometimes.

Tom - back to your original question (of which I almost forgot, because I've got those damn Village People songs rattling around in my head). You made an interesting point about most good officials having a strong personality. I think it's that very reason that an official needs to consider both cases - staying next to a coach, or removing him/her self from the situation. Most of the time a T is given in a confrontational or heated situation. As much as we try to make it "just another call", you'll have to admit, most of the time the adrenaline is flowing a little faster than the last travel call you made. Maybe you feel comfortable with staying next to the coach. Some officials need to get away. I heard of a game where the same official called a T on a player, then 2 different T's on the head coach, all in under 60 sec. One of the other officials I talked to said if there was a way he would've gotten in front of his partner and gotten him away from the situation, he probably could've saved at least the second T on the coach, who is one of the quieter and more respectful coaches in the league. So it's not just the coach who might need calming down, it might be your partner as well. This is something usually covered in (you guessed it) the pre-game. One thing I try to have our crew do after a T is issued is to have at least 2 officials get together for a moment to go over things such as who's the T on, who's shooting and which basket, do you want to stay tableside, etc. Each situation is different, and should be handled differently.

My point has always been we know that it is an emotional call or situation. I think we should not go out of our way to avoid the coach. You think if the coach is carrying a brick for an official after the T is not going to have one the first foul called and you stand next to the coach? I think we do way too much to avoid bad behavior from a coach instead of just doing our job. It is not our responsibility to "calm down the coach." That is the coach's responsibility to calm themselves down. I agree with Tommy that it is also one of my pet peeves to have partners try to explain things for me when I can speak for myself. I also do not try to explain things for my partners when they have a better look at something or they made a judgment on something I either did not see or know what happen. I used to think differently when we always went opposite table for every foul. Now that we go table side for every foul, most coaches are very aware of what happen and when they do not understand that is why you are there to give information. I remember when the table side change came into play, I was one of those that thought it was a bad idea because all coaches would do was b!tch and complain. I have found that coaches say almost nothing when you are standing right in front of them after a tough foul call. Then they behave when you are standing in from of them because they do not have the opportunity to show out across the court. Now when we are standing in front of them they know they have to watch their words and usually get the hint. Why treat a T any different?

Peace

I understand those who feel like they should go across and those who feel like they can stay.
Remember, my particular situation was in the second half and I didn't hesitate to walk across. My partner would not have been right in front of the coach anyway because it was the second half. He went into the backcourt; there was no reason for this. He was the R and this was a wake-up call for me - I will never let someone get away with a lame pre-game again. I thought he was better than that. At this point he probably thinks I'm a hard a$$, but I think he is just soft for the situation in this thread and many more plays during the game.

I can't believe this wasn't understood. Of COURSE that's what I meant. I had a partner when I lived in Tennessee whack a coach like that -- right middle finger coming together with left middle finger. He did it so quickly nobody (but me) caught it.

I've seem Joe Crawford give a T with just his index fingers.

Ever since I started participating in this thread, I've called two direct technicals on head coaches, my first since last January.

Both coaches wanted them. I was happy to oblige.

Frankly, I could not and still can not believe an actual adult would be immature enough to do something like this.

But apparently so.

Boys & girls, do not give the coach the finger when you T him.

:rolleyes:

Boys & girls, do not give the coach the finger when you T him.

[/B][/QUOTE]I agree. Use the NFHS approved signal--> signal #37..
http://www.gifs.net/other/crit_suc.gif

I agree. Use the NFHS approved signal--> signal #37..
http://www.gifs.net/other/crit_suc.gif [/B][/QUOTE]
:)

I agree. Use the NFHS approved signal--> signal #37..
http://www.gifs.net/other/crit_suc.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Only because it's a rainy miserable day & it's been a while anyway...this one's for you JR. Enjoy

http://www.anotherstateofmind.net/ts%20finger.JPG

Only because it's a rainy miserable day & it's been a while anyway...this one's for you JR. Enjoy

http://www.anotherstateofmind.net/ts%20finger.JPG [/B][/QUOTE]

Lemmee guess.
... A sleeping elephant.

Lemmee guess.
... A sleeping elephant. [/B][/QUOTE]

Nope.

Dwarf clam digger.

You guys are silly.