This story can be found at

http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news/ap/...layersdqd.html


Shout of 'Jesus Christ!' disqualifies player in
state tourney


May 25, 2001

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. (AP) -- Frustrated high
school tennis players in Tennessee can yell ``Jesus!'' or
``Christ!'' without censure. What they can't do is scream
``Jesus Christ!''

Those two words were shouted by Bearden's Cameron
Boyd after he lost serve in the third set of the Class
AAA championship doubles match -- and he and
partner Brandon Allan were disqualified.

Jan Genosi, the Tennessee Secondary Schools Athletic
Association official at Thursday's match, came onto the
court and awarded the victory to Scott and Andrew
Felsenthal, citing the profanity rule.

Genosi said the state association closely follows U.S.
Tennis Association rules, which permit players to yell
``Jesus'' and ``Christ'' -- just not in the same breath.

``You allow 'Jesus' and you allow 'Christ,' but you
won't allow them together?'' Boyd asked Genosi.
``That's ridiculous.''

State tennis rules call for an automatic default on a first
offense for visible or audible profanity or obscenity or
physical abuse of a player or official.

``I don't have any leeway,'' Genosi said. ``I'm going by
the rule.''

Bearden coach Ann Ham said she had not heard that
phrase included in warnings about forbidden profanity.

Scott Felsenthal would have preferred to win on the
court and thought it should have just drawn a warning.

``But I'm also glad they enforce such strict rules,'' he
said.

Wow, they have officials for tennis?

Here the players still jsut call their own game.


Aside from that, I see both sides of the argument, but I probably would have just given a warning. We don't know the whole situation either, but I am guessing multiple lawyers were consulted.

My guess, and you know what happens with assumptions, is that this guy wasn't an actual match official (line judge, chair ump, referee, etc.) but that he was more like the site director.

Defaulting a match or forfeiting a game for profanity, on the first offense, creates a dangerous precendent. Especially for a statement that may or may not be viewed as "profanity," depending upon your religious orientation.

Using the tennis example,penalize a point for first offenses, heck, maybe even a game, but to forfeit the match. seems a bit excessive.

any constitutional lawyers out there that can explain the legality of this rule?

jake

Are you kidding?!?! There couldn't possibly be anything about this that is unconstitutional. If the fellow who did the throwing-out is right, and not working on a personal issue, then the rules are the rules and it's up to the players to know them and follow them or risk the consequences.

My personal opinion, is that all these words, plus Allah, Buddha, and a few other religious references (including the word "God!) should be automatic T's, if not ejections. Using these words in frustration or anger shows disrespect and disdain for common and well-known religious beliefs and should come under the definition of "Attitude--disrespect for authority". But then I am an extremist and this is not a battle I'm expecting to win anytime soon!

No legality is required. The First Ammendment states that the CONGRESS (usually interpreted as the government) shall make no law prohibiting the freedom of speech. This is why a newspaper isn't required to print every editorial, etc.

any constitutional lawyers out there that can explain the legality of this rule?[/QUOTE]

"No legality is required. The First Ammendment states that the CONGRESS (usually interpreted as the government) shall make no law prohibiting the freedom of speech. This is why a newspaper isn't required to print every editorial, etc."

Mark, thanks for your explaination.


Rainmaker wrote:
"My personal opinion, is that all these words, plus Allah, Buddha, and a few other religious references (including the word "God!) should be automatic T's, if not ejections. Using these words in frustration or anger shows disrespect and disdain for common and well-known religious beliefs and should come under the definition of "Attitude--disrespect for authority". But then I am an extremist and this is not a battle I'm expecting to win anytime soon!"

rainmaker (Juulie i think?)--
I don't disagree that an outburst similar to the ones you have described should be penalized with a technical foul, my point was that FORFEITING a tennis match for that behavior, which is tantamount to forfeiting a basketball team, seems a bit excessive. Can we agree on that? Because that was really my point.

Jake

You're missing the point. It wasn't a forfeit, it was an ejection. Since you can't play doubles with one person, a forfeit is the result. The official had no choice is the TSSAA strictly abides by a profanity rule and "Jesus Christ" is included in that rule.

In NC, profanity by a participant is an autoimatic ejection. If it's a basketball player, then the coach just sends a sub in. But in tennis, the match would be forfeited.

That's the rule.

What if I am not a Christian?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

You're missing the point. It wasn't a forfeit, it was an ejection. Since you can't play doubles with one person, a forfeit is the result. The official had no choice is the TSSAA strictly abides by a profanity rule and "Jesus Christ" is included in that rule. In NC, profanity by a participant is an autoimatic ejection. If it's a basketball player, then the coach just sends a sub in. But in tennis, the match would be forfeited. That's the rule.

But a T or an ejection for "Jesus Christ?" I think we need to give more leeway than that. All of us are not Christians and would not find that offensive in anyway. If I was a Muslim, I might not even realize the significance of the usage of that world. I agree that we need to do something about profanity, but just saying the Lord's name in vain, might have some significance if you do not feel that Jesus is your Lord.

Peace

Re: What if I am not a Christian?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

But a T or an ejection for "Jesus Christ?" I think we need to give more leeway than that. All of us are not Christians and would not find that offensive in anyway. If I was a Muslim, I might not even realize the significance of the usage of that world. I agree that we need to do something about profanity, but just saying the Lord's name in vain, might have some significance if you do not feel that Jesus is your Lord. Peace

But some of us are Christians and some of us do find it offensive. Simply saying, well they may not find it offensive doesn't excuse it.

This is one of those things that no one will agree on. What is offensive to me is not to the person next to me and so on. I don't think a zero tolerance is the way to go, but there is a lot of grey area on the topic. This kid probably did the same thing many times during the year and no one ever penalized it.

But, that is a soapbox for a different time.

I'm not questioning whether the TSSAA policy is correct, moral, or appropriate. I really don't care what their policies are are. All I'm saying is that the official was correct in his action is this is what happened.

Rut, in past posts, you've indicated that the IHSAA allows players and coacheds to use profanity. That's fine, if that's what they want to do. You also know that in my state, that is not allowed. That doesn't make either association right or wrong. We must simply uphold the rules and policies of the association that we work under. It would appaer that Jan Genosi did just that.

I agree with 12248 that it's excessive. But if it was already in the rules that way, the kid doesn't have a let to stand on legally.

I disagree with Rut that if I'm not a Christian, saying the Lord's name as an expression of anger isn't offensive to me. I am Caucasian, but I am offended if anyone uses the N word, not because I am Amrican-American, but because of what it shows about the person who said it.

Also, note that many missionaries have observed that the words, "Jesus Christ" aren't used as profanity until the concepts and ideas and stories of Christianity are introduced. It isn't just a random word, like "Oshibibble" or something. It has meaning, and the people that use it as profanity use it with meaning. The disrespect that is reflected is what I find offensive.

Religion and Politics nobody will ever agree!!!! Rainmaker makes a good point. When somebody uses "Jesus Christ" in anger or frustration, they are saying it in a negative way.
The meaning of the word is penalized whether you think it is profanity or not. Players and coaches are "T" up in basketball for other things besides Profanity it is how they say certain things or after a warning. Whether I am Christian or not, whatever my origin, race, or gender is does not matter. Young or old! You still have to be aware of your surroundings and watch what you say. There are many things that will offend someone or some group of people.

AK ref SE

What else would you expect from a "Bible Belt" state? Another case of religious (read Christian) fanatics forcing their beliefs on the rest of us.

bob

What an incredibly interesting statement...Christian fanatics forcing their beliefs on us by having a rule against profanity in tennis matches??? I'm not sure where that comes from, but I do know that this State Association Official followed the rules as they are written in that state...how can you fault him? He did his job...as for whether or not it was actual profanity - I have a supervisor who told us at a meeting that if profanity was loud enough to be heard in the front row, call a T! When asked to define profanity, he said "If it's something you wouldn't hear on t.v. during the 'family hour', it's profanity." Pretty simple policy...had the kid yelled "Jesus Christ" in one of my games, I'd T him...

Blue Zebra-
You deserve a "T" for that response."Fanatic". This has nothing to do with somebody pushing beliefs on anyone. If someone yelled out "Fat slob" if the tone,volume, and meaning is in my opinion inappropriate. I would "T" him/her up! Whether you believe in Religion or not. Certain words or phrases should not be tolerated.
Like I said Politics and Religion, Nobody will ever agree!
AK ref SE

[Edited by AK ref SE on May 31st, 2001 at 05:10 PM]

Bob,

When you reply, please stay on the topic. This is not a forum for your personal beliefs.<p>It was in the rules that an outburst will get you disqualified. The kid made an outburst. By rule, he was disqualified. Now we have a doubles match with one team only having one player.<p>Easy call. Match over. Amen.

Actually, BigDave, the original post did not say the player was disqualified for an outburst, but specifically for what he said. In fact, it stated that if he would have said either word by itself, in just the same manner, there would have been no penalty.

There are certain words I consider profanity, but frankly these aren't among them. Deciding what is profane is a different issue from attitude and intent for purposes of assessing technicals.

For TH and Rainmaker
 

TH, I never said that the IHSA (not the IHSAA, that is Iowa) profanitiy is not a T'able offense. I said that they do not have profanity as a no tolerance policy like the state of North Carolina. Other than what the rules say, profanity is not a policy in stone that warrants a T. And in my opinion and believe me different people disagree on this, I use common sense when the profanity is used.

If a player curses at his coach or curses out his fellow teammates, I for one am not going to give a T to that player or coach. But if he curses at me that is a different story. And even if we are having a conversation and a curse word is used, and not a sole hears this conversation but me and the player and or coach, I am going to be hard pressed to give a T.

*****************************************
To Rainmakker:

I do not disagree that certain words do should not be said and should not be voiced at all, but if I am in the Chicago Public League and two Black players are talking amongst themselves and one uses the N word, I am certainly not going to go into there conversation and give a T for those words. Now, I do not agree with the usage of that word and being and African-American myself, as long as they are not calling myself a Nigger or one of the opponents or a fan, I personally do not care what they say amongst themselves. Now what I might do in this situation is call the players aside and tell them that word should not be used here or anywhere else that others can hear it. I am not one who advocates the usuage of the N word period, whether it is used by Blacks and African-Americans or people outside of that community. I was raised that way, but I do understand that others were not. So I am not going to give T's because I have a political difference with other Blacks or African-Americans about a word that is used in a political or social context. I have better things to do. But this is a whole different discussion.

I am a Christian, I am not one that is so easily offended. So the usage of "Jesus Christ" in itself is not going to get me to start T'ing the choir or a player because the say that. If you want to tell the truth, the usage if the Lord and savior is an offense unto God, not me. Only the people that make that type of comment has to answer to Jesus for that, not me.

I am not Catholic or Muslim or Buddist and do not understand all the things that would offend people of those religions. So I am not going to make the a point just because someone says something that offends a religion unless they comment is made to intimidate or taunt an opponent or me. So unless a comment is personal in nature, I am leaving it alone.

Now this does not mean that the comment will not go unsaid by me or a point will not be made. But I am not going to penalize a team or affect the game if a kids says something in anger to his team or to himself.

And considering that I do Football and Baseball and many things are said amongst teammates all the time that the only one that hears the comments are sometimes the teammates and maybe you if you are close enough. But I am an official, not the thinking police.

I think personally Christians need to get a life (and I am one) and find other things to find offensive. Are we going to start giving T's for other behavior that offends us like tatoos and other things that go against our religious beliefs.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on May 31st, 2001 at 07:45 PM]

Ditto.

But what did the kid do?
 

My question would be who did he yell it at? Did he think he got fouled or did the miss an open layup?

Because if he yelled it at the official, I have no problem with given the kid a T at all. I would do the same if the kid said "dawggonnit!!!!," if he felt he was fouled.

But if the kid just missed a wide open layup and yelled, "Jesus Christ!!!!!" I am going to pass. Does not mean I will not say anything, but if that is the first outburst, a T is not automatic.

Just a thought.

Peace

Re: But what did the kid do?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

My question would be who did he yell it at? Did he think he got fouled or did the miss an open layup? Because if he yelled it at the official, I have no problem with given the kid a T at all. I would do the same if the kid said "dawggonnit!!!!," if he felt he was fouled. But if the kid just missed a wide open layup and yelled, "Jesus Christ!!!!!" I am going to pass. Does not mean I will not say anything, but if that is the first outburst, a T is not automatic. Just a thought. Peace

I think my approach is in line with yours, I'm not gonna
T everytime a player mutters the f word under his breath,
and I'll remind him to keep it civil. But some level of
self control is expected. I'm inclined to T a player for
missing a layup & yelling out loud anything approaching
what could be called an "explitive", which to me includes
"Jesus Christ!!!!!". To me it's game management. Once you
let the obvious & overt stuff go you've started down a very slippery slope.

Like I said before - it may not offend me, but if it's not gonna be on the family hour of t.v., and it's said loud enough for the fans to hear, then T the kid...I am also a Christian, but I am not the judge of other's behavior...if asked I will tell them I disagree...if not asked, I keep my mouth shut...that is NOT the point of this discussion...the kid violated a rule and paid the price - agree or disagree with the rule, it is a rule (kinda like the new full time-out signal - I hate it but will use it because it's a rule)...

Actually, I've heard lots of words during the "family hour" on television that I would give a T for if I heard them in a game. The late Steve Allen said that TV has become a "sewer". I'm not sure I agree with going that far, but I do know that the first network hour each night is far different in tone and language from when I a kid, even from when I was raising small kids. The worst part is that network shows that normally run later are routinely "stripped" at the dinner hour.

I am not advocating censorship in the slightest and certainly I am not a prude by a long shot. I'm only saying that times have changed and sometimes I feel like I'm trying to hold back a bursting dam when I insist on no profanity and good sportsmanship during games.

Well let me say this.
 

I think what is offensive in Midway, Alabama, is not offensive in Detroit, Michigan. What is offensive in Macomb, Ilinois, is not offensive necessarily the same thing that is offensive in Waukeekan, Ilinois.

My point is if you feel that this is offensive and a curse word (and you have that right) give them a T. If you feel that the context is self-defeating, then you have the right to take action which that official deems appropriate.

I think that what is profane to one is appropriate or acceptable to others. I personally do not care if other officials disagree that "Jesus Christ" is not a profanity statement or not. But If I call a T on a kid that just missed a open shot, and said it and I hear it, I would get thrown out of most conferences here if I would dare call that a T. Now if that same kid said that to me after he thought he called a foul, then I would be commended.


Now obviously we all are not going to completely agree. I really do not expect to change anyone's belief on this. You have to do what you feel is right and what system you are under like TH is under North Carolina rules. But I did want to share this story that was similar in nature.
************************************************** **********


I was doing a 3 man game at an AAU tournament in Central Illinois this past weekend. I belive with about 6 seconds on the clock a kid felt that he was fouled or something did not go his way for some reason. I was the Center and far away from the play, but my partner who I believe was the Lead or New Trail in this situation and the play was right in front of him. I guess the kid showed his displeasure with my partner by cursing at him (I am not really sure what he said, but it was not JC), and then my partner gave this kid a T. Now the game was pretty much decided and the outcome was only a formality at that point. Because this was a summer game and tournament, there were kids standing all around this condensed court waiting to play the next game. Now an assignor was also our partner and a big time official in the area I live. The organizer of the tournament was also a big time officials in the area and was coaching one of the teams in the tournament but was not participating in this particular game.

Well after the game the assignor and the tournament organizer came up to the T calling official and wanted to know what happen. I had no clue myself but I wanted to hear the conversation because this was a situation where I could learn from what the "big boys" thought.

Basically they told him that(assignor and tournament organizer doing the talking) he should have passed on the T. They further said that the game was decided and there was not a need to "send a message" at that point. The calling official disagreed. He felt that this kid cursed at him, and because the player did this and many other players heard him, he felt that he need to get the message that his actions were not acceptable. And finally the assignor told him that, "If an assignor were to see the actions of the player and the actions that you took as a result, that assignor would think you did not know how to handle the game."

Comments about the story.

Re: Well let me say this.
 

the point, though, is that the tennis rules (well, okay, interpretations) specifically state that "JC" is a violation.

Heck, even I read about that *before* this incident -- and I neither officiate nor play tennis.

So, when the words were uttered, the penalty was automatic.

It's as if the FED added a Note to 10-3-8b: "Use of the phrase 'JC' is automatically determined to be profane, inappropriate and obscene."

You might not like that change. I might not like that change. But, I'd enforce it. (At the same time as I was enforcing it, I might lobby for it to be changed.)

Re: Well let me say this.
 

Rut,
I agree with your thoughts on cursing, but that darn Assignor and Tournament director....

On the surface, I am with your partner. It seems he did what he had to do.
If it was a solid call, the TD was doing that " please the customer thing", and the assignor was covering his back.
Now, if there was a really, really bad call that caused this commotion, if there was a whole lot more to the story, then maybe I could understand them saying something.

Last year, at a Team Camp, I called a late intentional foul right in front of 3 coaches and the TD. (<I>a kid pushed the back of an opponent making an open lay-up.</i>)

After the game I mentioned that I hated to make that call at that point in the game. But in my case, they agreed that it had to be made because the kid was so wrong.
mick

I agree with Mick...if the player swears at me and spectators hear it, I T him...if the TD and the assignor don't like it, oh well - that's life...