I have been searching the NCAA rulebook this morning for something to cover this situation directly.

Player had completed his dribble and was attempting to pass to a team mate. Just as the pass was being made the team mate moved away and the ball handler tried to stop the pass but fumbled it forward. He ran a couple of steps and picked the ball up then passed it away without pivoting again. I know we do not punish for a missed shot attempt but what about here? Travel or no call?

Smoke

Under NFHS Rules, a fumble anytime is a No Call.

If he actually passed it and ran over and picked it up after it bounced.....I got a Double Dribble.

If he threw it and ran over and picked it up before it bounces.....I got a Travel.

Is that right? A "Pass" by definition has to be to another Player.

Further to clarify how I seen the play. He was attempting to regain control of his pass and fumbled it forward. Then he had to run a few step to gather it up. So it would be similar to your first violation (DD) except there was no second dribble. NCAA rules here.

[Edited by SmokeEater on Jan 11th, 2006 at 09:29 AM]

I believe you are incorrect. If the ball is fumbled then the player may recover the fumbled ball.

Incorrect about what? I am askng what call should be made and the reference support from the rule book. If there is any of course.

I think the timing of how this occurred is critical.

If the player fumbled the ball AS they were ending their dribble, I'd allow them to recover the ball.

If the player clearly ended their dribble, then attempted a pass and lost the ball, I'd have an illegal dribble when they touched the ball again. (If the fumbled pass just bounces along until picked up by someone or going out of bounds, we play on. If the player who threw the fumbled pass touches it again, I'd have an illegal dribble.)

NCAA Rule 4, Sec. 18, Art. 4 b ...the dribble ends when the dribbler touches the ball with both hands. (Page 71 in the book.)

Now, A.R. 14 (b) says a player may recover a dribble that is fumbled when they attempt to complete their dribble. But they may not dribble again.

This is why timing is critical. In your scenario, I imagined a player clearly ending their dribble and then attempting a pass. In that case, I'd have an illegal dribble if they touch the "fumbled pass" again.

ty Nu1

Well described and I understand clearly what you are saying. You are correct in your assumption of how the play developed. Dribble was clearly ended and the pass attempt was tehn fumbled. I called a Travel.

You need to dedcide whether it was an attempted pass or a fumble. If it's the former, it's a violation. If the latter, it's legal.

Is this true in all situations regarding a fumble? If its an attempted pass its a violation, if its a fumble you play on?

I was saying that you are incorrect to say that it is similar to the Double Dribble because it is not a dribble when it is fumbled.

As Bob Jenkins said correctly, you have to determine if it's a fumble or not.

Yes it is true. You can always recover a fumble.

To often I see officials calling travels when the player does not have control of the ball. Just because it looks ugly doesn't mean anything!

What if they leave the floor (jump) and then fumble and ...

a) land, then catch the ball before it bounces
b) land, then pick up the ball after it lands.

A) Legal
B) Legal

Player Control ends when you fumble the ball.

c) regain control in the air and land - Legal

That's a bad pass, not a fumble
 

If it looks like a badly executed pass . . .

Nope, that's an illegal dribble.

With one exception, you must be holding the ball to travel.

It makes no difference. You can always recover a fumble.

I saw something similar in a JV boy’s game. A1 stopped his dribble, he was attempting a pass up court to A2 and at the last second B1 jumped in front of him which caused him to adjust his pass. The pass went up high and over B1 head. A1 then ran around B1 and caught the pass. The official right on top of the play made no call. He later explained to the coach that this was a legal play. I had my rule book, but I could not find the rule on this play.

I am not sure which one it is similar to, but this is not a fumble and is illegal, specifically illegal dribble.

When I was this, the first thing that cam to mind was "travel".

I'll never forget the first time I saw that happen. I was T, and the point guard passed the ball to the shooting guard, who promptly left his spot. The point guard ran over and picked up the ball after a couple of bounces. It caught me totally by surprise. I sort of froze up, and the coach, who had been chippy all night (and of course, is right by me), starts yelling at me, "He passed the ball to himself!!! You can't do that!!!!" But the moment had passed. At which point, I said to the coach, "Yeah, I might have missed that one!" He was stunned. Then he says, "That's what I want to hear!"
So the moral of the story is, the coach just wants us to say we're wrong. I guess.

BktBallRef,

I respectfully disagree. A1 dribbles and stops his dribble. B1 defends. A1 passes ball over B1's head and goes around him and catches it.

I call it a Travel based on this:

1. It's not a dribble. The ball hasn't hit the floor or backboard.

2. A1 has lifted his pivot foot. The Rule says that is permitting as long as A1 passes or Attempts prior to the pivot foot returning to the floor.

3. The definition of a Pass says it must be to another player - not yourself. So he doesn't conform to the Traveling Rule for a Pass.

4. It's not an Attempt. So he doesn't conform to the Traveling Rule for an attempt.

Conclusion: A1 is holding the ball after picking up and returning his pivot foot to the floor without conforming to any provisions of the Traveling Rule. I don't get it as an Illegal Dribble.

Another Variation of passing to oneself
 

Ok never thought I would see the rule book contradict itself. There must be reasonable explanation for it. NCAA rules.

A1 is dribbling the ball on a break-away. At around the free throw line, A1 legally stops his dribble, throws the ball against the backboard and follows the throw. A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks.

This is legal as per rule 4-67-4 A.R. 44

To me it contradicts rule 4-18-4 A.R. 13

Anyone care to add. Of course you do.

Re: Another Variation of passing to oneself
 

AR 44 deals with throwing the ball off the TEAM's backboard -- legal play.

AR 13 deals with throwing the ball off the OPPONENT's backboard -- it's a dribble (and a violation in the specific play persented).

There Ya go 1 word makes all the difference. Thank You