Hi all,

I have been reading this forum for several months now and as a new referee have learned much from many of the threads.

Now I have the courage to post a question of my own.

In a middle school youth game other day, A1 and B1 fight for a rebound and both are holding the ball. A1 is a bigger and stronger player than B1. Referees call a jump ball. Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball, A1 rips the ball out of B1's hands and sends B1 to the floor. No contact between players other than the ball being forcefully pulled away. B1 gets hurt (banged her head on the floor but not seriously, just shaken up) from falling to the floor. B1 gets replaced. As B1 is being replaced, the referee decides to change the held ball call to a foul.

My question is, should a foul be called in this situation? The only basis for a foul I could see was excessive force but no contact with the other player was made. I would not have called the foul on player A. What do you think?

remeber I use FIBA rules :p but I wouldn't have called it.
Yes it's using lots of force but unless there's contact you can't call a personal foul (there must be physical contact to be a PF)
The exception is if the player was intending to hurt her opponent by pushing the ball on her or something similar, that would be an unsporting or disqualifing foul (or Technical, Flagrant (I think) in the US)

That's a classic unsporting technical foul. The correct call is a held ball <b>followed</b> by a "T" on A1. It should be called- especially at the middle school level.

Welcome to the forum.

then I must ask, for what? Excessive use of force, ur just opponent having bad balance (could be so)?
If the intent wasn't to hurt the opponent, why the T?

All contact after the ball is dead is ignored unless it is considered flagrant or intentional.

Why would you call a T on a player for being stronger? The original post says the ball was ripped just as the whistle blew so it's not like after the whistle activity. It's not uncommon when middle schoolers are both tugging on the ball and one pulls it away for the other to fall.

For the play described, I would go with a held ball. However, since the calling official changed his call to a foul, maybe he saw something we didn't.

I completely disagree. When two players (opponents) have simultaneous posession, the ball is live until the whistle blows to stop play. I dont know how many instances I have seen a rebound come off and two players have hands on it but the stronger come away with it. Another example would be if A1 is bring the ball into the frontcourt being closely guarded by B1. If A1 picks up the ball and exposes it to B1 who immediately rips it away, then if there was no foul and it wasnt blown dead for a jump ball then play continues.

In the play described above, both players had hands on the ball. Instincts say pull it away. If it can be pulled away before there is a whistle then ITS LIVE!! In the afore mentioned play both players had hands on the ball and I'm sure were trying to pull it away, my question is how can this be an unsporting act, the whistle hadnt blown. Had the whistle blown and A1 continued to pull and swung B1 to the ground then yes, unsporting. In this case IMO its a jumpball.

A1 used enough force to put B1 on the floor, and also out of the game. And this happened in a kid's game too. If you feel that is appropriate behavior, so be it. I don't. Jmo, but I think that if you lets acts like that go, you are going to have some real big-time game management issues someday- even under FIBA rules.

I still dont understand your interpretation of this play. Imagine yourself in a held ball situation with an opponent. You both have possesion but the whistle is late...What are you going to do? If you say anything other than try to rip it away then you havent been taught the game. So if you rip the ball away and your opponent isnt as strong as you and falls to the floor, you are going to call an unsporting foul. No way. The official should have blown the whistle sooner. Again had the "throw down" come after the whistle had blown then maybe a foul should have been called. But to penalize a player as stiff as you say is unheard of. The unsporting act rule is very open, lots of things could fall under this rule; however, it's my belief that making that call in this situation is making the rule fit your need.

JR -- This play happens all the time and doesn't get called as any foul. It's not unsporting for one player to yank the ball away from the other. The fall and the injury resulted from the smaller, weaker player being off- balance and not able to hold herself steady, not from any unsporting action by A1.

Would you feel differently if he'd said, "Just as the larger player pulled the ball away, my partner blew his whistle. At the same moment B1 fell and hurt herself." In terms of the rules, that's what happened.

enough force to put someone on the floor isn't much, e.g lots of big ppl (mostly those fighting for rebounds) sweat a lot (me for example). This makes your grip bad, and if the ball has bad grip, and you lose grasp when somebody pulls the ball, your body is trying to follow the ball, and when the support of the ball (the hands on the ball is keeping your balance) suddenly is gone (becuse you slip, or the ball is pulled away) you fall to the ground, try it, have somebody hold a ball, lean forward, you don't even have to let go to realise it's easy to lose your balance, just becuse a player falls does not mean the opponent commited an unsporting act, hold balls are difficult situations to officiate just becuse of the contact and force involved, but it's also hard to penalise fouls in hold ball situations, and always will be. But I still stand that if a player falls, it does not mean an unsporting act, how ever ,if the whistle is blown, players still struggles and then somebody's forced to the ground, that may warrant a T

Then I remembered this just before hitting submit:
"If a player is risking injury from the force in a hold-ball situation, the officials are to IMMEDIETLY call the jump ball to ensure saftey of the players"
If you don't quit pulling then, I would T the player, but as long as somebody isn't swining elbows or risking to injury a player, let them drag for a few seconds (3 usually is good) then call the jump ball, player falls often, in 9 of 10 cases it's not becuse of the opponent getting them to the ground, it's slipping or losing balance.

I'm sorry if this is a long and bad written post (I think it is) but I don't have the time to go through it and correct it, if it's totaly weird I'll edit it though

I posted <b>my</b> opinion. It's <b>a middle school youth</b> game. The action put a player on the floor and also out of the game. If you disagree that the act was unsporting, so be it. That's <b>your</b> opinion.

Seems more like it's "all of our opinion".

That could very well be.

However, that also sureashell ain't gonna change <b>my</b> opinion.

I think I feel a shut up comming!

Too many times in this forum I see us being too quick to judge a situation when we weren't there to see it. In this case the force was applied, "Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball." According to the poster who was there it was so close to the whistle that it is a legitimate question as to if it should be ignored. And, having worked with junior high kids, I know that they can be clumsy, not able to react right away and in most instances not mean-spirited. Bottom line: I wasn't there.

Well, not from me....

I might not agree with someone's else's opinion, but they sureashell certainly have the right to have their own opinion.

And I'll defend that right to <b>their</b> death!

Wow, I didn't mean to start a fight but thanks for the opinions.

Just for clarification, A1 did not cause the player to fall by ripping the ball out after the whistle. I also don't think A1 had any intentions to hurt B1, she simply was doing what all kids are taught during a held ball and that is to aggressively get the ball.

My feeling is the call was changed because B1 came up crying not because a foul was committed. I think the refs felt a foul call would make the situation better. The coach for player B1 was not asking for a foul.

I wasn't sure if the player falling to the floor because of the action of ripping the ball out could somehow be interpreted as a foul even though no actual contact occurred. I did not consider the unsporting technical so I looked again at 4-19-14. The "unfair" word/part of the definition is the only one that may apply but being bigger and stronger and using one's strength is not acting in an unfair manner.

To me it was a situation in which players get hurt playing the game.

In this situation your are merely complicating the play by even considering the unsporting T. If there was no contact and you feel as though there was no malicious intent then it easy, IT'S A JUMP BALL. By calling a foul in this situation you are sending the players mixed signals. You are telling them it's okay to try to pull the ball away, but it the defender falls and crys then the foul will be called.

JR...I'm getting in late on this one.

But, I'm with you. If we are going to error...I'm going to error on the side of protecting middle school players.
Evidently, the other official, in this game, saw it the same as JR and I.

Middle school players need to STOP on the whistle...the extra-curricular activity that follows these situations is what gets players hurt. The foul call by the official... that was actually there and saw the play...reinforces the idea of stopping play, or being ready to stop play, on the whistle. Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion whole heartedly. But the fact is the whistle hadnt blown to STOP play. This happened before the whistle was blown. So you can blame the official for not having a quicker whistle to stop play or you can understand that sometimes things like this happen. What you cant do is punish the player for being aggressive.

Can we get something straight here? THIS IS NOT A JUMP BALL. It's a HELD ball.

A JUMP ball is a method of putting the ball in play by tossing it to start the game or an OT.

A HELD ball occurs when two opponents both have their hands on the ball, such that neither one can gain control without undue roughness.


Now, with that definition in mind, all I have is a HELD ball. Let's suppose the whistle was blown one second later, or had not blown at all, and the exact same play occurred. Are we going to call a technical foul? I'm not, and I hope no one else here would either. The split second timing of this play does not call for a T.

Now, if the HELD ball was whistled, both players had an opportunity to hear it, perhaps B1 loosened her grasp adn then suddenly, A1 tears the ball away, there may be justification for a T.

But splitting hairs on a whistle that sounds a second or less before the rip away - A T is over officious IMHO.

I agree that its a held ball, I don't see a foul here. If it is WELL after the whistle, they you might have an unsporting or flagrant foul. In similar situations I'll speak to the player about calming down and stopping when you hear they whistle.

Okay, I've had to do some calisthenics to clear my head to make sure I'm alright. Here goes. I agree with JR.

We make decisions all the time that could be framed as "penalizing someone for their size," one way or another.

a 5'9" point guard goes plowing into the lane, and knows that he is going to have contact with the huge center. The PG blows in, jumps hard, absorbs the contact from the center, who barely budges, bounces off of it and converts the lay-up. Play on, no questions from anybody.

Same scenario, except instead of the big center, it's another guard. This guard gets absolutely mowed down. Player control, no questions from anybody.

Did we penalize the center in the first play for being big, since we didn't call the PC? Or did we penalize the point guard in the second play because he chose to crash into a small guy rather than a big one? The answer is neither. We refereed the plays.

People have to account for their own size and strength when they make decisions on the basketball court. What is being ignored here is the middle ground between the amount of force necessary to prise the ball away from an opponent, and the amount that results in the opponent being thrown to the ground? "But how can we expect...?"
Life's tough sometimes (Gosh, I never thought I'd be ending a post like that).

jbduke,
I'm not saying that the situations you described don't happen or that I've never done it (I'm sure I probably have), but if we're doing a good job of refereeing the defense, the players size isn't going to make a difference as to whether contact is PC or not. It will depend upon the defensive position.

Might as well jump in here...

No T. The player pull on a live ball....just as the whistle blew. They have every right to yank the ball until the whistle and should have a moment to react when they hear the whistle. It doesn't matter which level it is...a player shouldn't have to anticipate a whistle that may never come.

HELD ball, not a jump ball!
 

BB ,

Agreed! One of my pet peeves is that it is still called a jump ball. How many years since we eliminated the plethora of jump balls, 20? And...."held" is an appropriate term to illustrate that the ball is held and that excessive force is then required to free it by either player.

Ever heard of the term advantage/disadvantage?



My question still stands. If this happened and the whistle had not blown, would you still have a T?

What if the player had not fallen?

The player did nothing wrong, as long as this was a simple continuation of a play that started before the whistle blew. It's an overreaction and it's over officious.

The difference between the situation you described and the one in question by the original poster is this: In your example there is an obvious PC foul or blocking foul. Someone in your example had to commit an illegal action. In the original post, there is no contact/no illegal action. It's a HELD (thanks for the correction BB,cant believe I typed that) ball. Both players have a right to that ball until the whistle is blowed.

NFHS Rule 4-25: <i>"A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained <b>without undue roughness</b></i>".

Did A1 gain <b>control</b> by <b>forcefully</b> pulling the ball away? Did A1, by forcefully pulling the ball away to gain control, also <b>send</b> B1 to the floor? That's <b>exactly</b> what the first post in this thread said.

<b>Imo</b>, the act met the definition above. It especially met the definition in middle-school ball. :)

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 10th, 2006 at 02:55 PM]

Have I ever heard of advantage/disadvantage? No, that wasn't patronizing. Of course I have. That's the whole point.

Look, someone mentioned several posts back that this this may be one of those plays where it's just not fair to make a judgment without seeing/hearing the timing of the whistle-throwdown. I'll concede that I should have recognized that and kept my fingers taped. Regardless of the actual timing in the play in question, let me simply state that I can certainly envision timing scenarios where, in a middle school game, a technical foul would not be inappropriate here. That being the case, it's also definitionally true that there are also timing instances in which I wouldn't agree.

Now everybody but me can live with my position.

Take it as patronizing if you like, that wasn't the intent. The intent was simply to point out that there's no advantage/disadvantage in the play where the bigger player is involved in a collision. It has nothing to do with penalizing a player because he/she is bigger/smaller. That's the point.

I agree. It's a held ball.

Where did it meet the definition of a technical foul? :D

I'm betting that if you were on the floor, you wouldn't throw a T. But, you've painted yourself into a corner, as many of us so often do. :p

I had an assignor that is a very good official and runs a great conference tell me that there are no jump balls in girls basketball. Obviously he was generalizing, but the reasoning is that if there is any possibility of a foul, call it just to keep them from being all over each other. You can apply the same to lower level games.

Well said. Thank you, Tony.

MTD, Sr.

Tony,

I think we're in violent agreement here. I posted my scenarios in response to the questions both expressed and implied of, "Aren't we penalizing someone for being stronger/bigger?" I hoped my example would illustrate that this is the wrong question, and that the question(s) should be more along the lines of advantage/disadvantage.

Again for the sake of argument, if the whistle blows for a held ball, then, after a reasonable amount of time has passed, one player, in trying to gain sole possession of the basketball, throws another to the ground, then at the middle school level, I'm with JR. And one of the reasons I am goes to the heart of the scenario I gave earlier; i.e. if you're talking about a small/weak girl, she's not going to be capable of generating the kind of force necessary to throw someone else to the ground, whereas a bigger/stronger girl will.

FWIW, my intent is not to debate whether the original poster's play included a 'reasonable amount of time,' or what exactly constitutes said amount.