After the horn ending the first quarter B1 slams the ball down in anger and the ball goes above his head. Official calls a T. What is the enforcement? Who is the foul charged to? And how do you administer this?

Direct T on B1.
Indirect on B head coach.
Start the 3rd qtr. with the T.

Exactly what I thought - where does it say B1 is bench personel between quarters?

I don't think it is an indirect on the coach. If so, can I get a rule book or casebook play.

10.4.1 SITUATION B: At halftime, as the teams, coaches, and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member verbally abuses one of the officials. RULING: A technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach. During intermission all team members are bench personnel and are penalized accordingly. If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified.

Originally posted by Snake-eyes
Yep. Although, why wait until after halftime to administer the penalty? ;)

Personally, I would administer the penalty before the second quarter starts, but that is just me.

I agree with L.A. to give the "T" now but not an "I" to the coach.

[Edited by jayzer on Jan 6th, 2006 at 01:06 PM]

There'a a rules citation posted above that says it <b>is</b> an indirect "T" on the coach. Do have a rules citation that will negate that rules citation? Or are you just saying the case book is wrong and <b>you</b> are right? :confused: The period between the first and second quarters is also an intermission btw.



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 6th, 2006 at 01:11 PM]

I stand corrected. SORRY.

What about during pregame? I cannot find any rules which state the "players" warming up are bench personnel. Can anyone help?

The case play cited applies to the hallway during a time where the teams are CLEARLY off the court. The original question said "horn ending first quarter," so the case play isn't (excuse the legal jargon) directly on point.

Whether the ball goes above his head is irrelevent, but I'm going to give a player T and not the coach. The intent of the rule the case play is referencing is that coaches are directly responsible for all bench personnel and that responsibility remains when they are or should be at or near the coach's side. That's a weird way of saying it, but I said it that way for visualization.

The definition of a "player" is one who is "legally on the court..." He is legally on the court at the end of a quarter. Since a "player" committed the infraction described, this falls under 10.3.7.

Now, if he goes back to the bench and does something like this, then the indirect is proper. But don't read too much into a case play and assume it applies in ALL remotely similar situations. I, for one, don't believe the case play referenced is similar, but even granting it is, it doesn't apply.

My bad. Thought he said first half, not first quarter. Doesn't change the ruling though.

Texas Aggie, if a player dunks in pregame, are you going to give the coach am indirect T?

If the player fouls out and you inform the coach, are you going to give the coach an indirect when you T the player and he's still standing in the FT lane?

You can't have both ways. Before the game and between periods, all team members are bench personnel. The case play clearly states, "During intermission all team members are bench personnel and are penalized accordingly." It doesn't say, During intermission when the teams are in the hallway, all team members are bench personnel and are penalized accordingly." 5-5-1 says, "Playing time for teams of high school age shall be four quarters of eight minutes each with intermissions of one minute after the first and third quarters, and 10 minutes between halves. "

Sorry but you're wrong.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 7th, 2006 at 12:25 AM]

10.3.4 SITUATION C: Fifteen minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks. Two minutes later A2 dunks. RULING: A1 and A2 are both charged with a technical foul. In addition, the head coach is charged indirectly with a technical foul for each act. The two fouls are team fouls for purpose of reaching the bonus. When dunking occurs during the pregame practice period the official notifies the team member and the head coach, but does not sound the whistle. If the game is played in a state which utilizes the optional coaching box, the coach should be informed that he/she has lost the privilege of using the coaching box for the entire game.

That doesn't say that the "players" are bench personnel. What if a player does something else other than dunking that warrants a T? Just looking for rules support.

If you've still got the 2003-04 rulebook, look at POE #1- "Suggestions For Improved Behavior":
- <i>"Officials should be prepared to assess a technical foul to a <b>teammember</b>/team demonstrating these unsporting acts. The specific inappropriate actions of a few teammembers may be individually penalized or the entire team may be assessed one technical foul, if they collectively engage in any inappropriate behavior(s). <b>Since all teammembers are considered bench personnel BEFORE THE GAME AND DURING INTERMISSIONS, the head coach would also be charged indirectly with the technical foul</b></i>".

That's very plain and definitive language imo. If <b>anybody</b> on a team gets a "T" before the game or during any intermission, the head coach gets an indirect "T" also.

JR's cite is very direct. The definitions are slightly less direct, but still clearly gives us the same information:

SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 . . . A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time.
ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).
ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

There are clearly no players until it's time to have 5 players on the floor. If all the team members are allowed to be on the floor (as during warmups and half-time), then there are no players. They are simply bench personnel, and thus the coach gets the indirect for their mis-behavior.

I am sorry, I know it is the rule but I just can't seatbelt a coach for his player on the court being stupid right as he walks off of it. I think that needs to be changed or better detailed in the rulebook.

Don't try to talk your self out of enforcement. Yes, its odd - bt its a rule.

Maybe game management would suggest you getting near the coach and informing them of the consequences.

Last week we had a "book" administrative technical to start the game. Coach was real cool and actually admitted and apologized to the table. i approached and reminded him he needed to sit for the game. He was stunned!

"By Rule, Sorry Coach" was all I needed to say.

There's a good reason he was stunned.

Why exactly was he seatbelted for an administrative T? :confused:

I agree with this part. As refs, we need to enforce the rules as written. You don't do anyone any favors by "winging it". If you think it should be changed, then work to change it. But until it IS changed, you have to do it by the book. Of course, there are rules that are subject to interpretation, and those you need to enforce as the interpretation runs in your area of the country. But things like the indirect T are in the book, and should be followed. Period.

So which is it?

You don't like the rule and will not enforce it?

You don't agree that the rule exists and will not enforce it?

If you think it needs to be changed, great, get it changed. Please explain exactly how you're going to write the rule so this one specific situation is addressed, without affecting any other.

But if you still disagree that the rule exists, then you're just plain wrong.

You said yourself it was a "book" administrative technical. So why did you make him sit down? It's neither direct nor indirect on him. He doesn't lose the box.

Snake, look up the definition of a player. There's no such thing as a player until the game begins. That's why all team members are bench personnel until 5 players take the floor to start the game.

If a team member curses you during the pre-game warm-up, then it's a T on the team member and an indirect on the head coach. Coaching box is lost.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:43 PM]