A5 is standing in frontcourt (both feet on frontcourt) as he receives live ball. After one dribbel on the frontcourt he takes two dribbles on the backcourt, without moving his feet to backcourt!

are we calling a violation right here??

Yes.

Z

Can you pleaz give me your argumentation??For I strongly feel that under Fiba rules, it's NOT a violation..



btw: zebraman, are you from Holland?

I don't know FIBA (feeble) rules. We usually assume NFHS rules on this board unless otherwise stated. You'll have to consult your feeble rule book.

I'm not from Holland. But I did stay at a Holiday Express last night and I do think that wooden shoes and tulips are kinda cool. :D

Z

Backcourt violation in FIBA too.

Its whats called the 3 point system, if anypart of the 3 point system( both feet, and the ball) is back court it is a back court violation. just like to gain front court status you must have all 3 in the front court.

A little learning is a dangerous thing, fonzzy. The rule is way, way, way more complicated than that, and your simplification only covers about half of the questions. Here are the simplifications that are a little more complete.

To have a bc violation, you must have:

1. Team control
2. Ball with frontcourt status
3. Team A player is last to touch before the ball gains bc status
4. Team A player is first to touch after the ball gains bc status.

The three point rule is that on a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball does not have frontcourt status until both feet of the dribbler and the ball have all touched in the fc in a row, without any touching in the bc.

Sounds byzantine? yea, but if you don't learn it correctly right from the beginning, and always remind yourself of all the details, it'll come back and bite you in the butt very soon.

Fiba rules? most definitely back-court violation!!

Since we are talking good ole' Feeble rules did anybody know that they are using one (yes just one) of the Fiba rules (being able to touch or rebound the ball after it has contacted the rim but is still in the imaginary cylinder) as an experimental rule in the NBA D-League? They are seriously thinking about using that in the NBA.

I'll tell why I think it's not a violation:
In art 30.1.2 is stated that a player of the team in posession of the ball -that player standing on the backcourt- has got to touch the ball to make it an illegal return to backcourt. I think that's not happening in this case...

If s/he touches the ball while its in the backcourt then the player is deemed to also be in the backcourt, regardless of where his/her feet are located.

All three points were in the frontcourt. One point (the ball) returned to the backcourt thus causing a violation.

@Smoke eater, so where the ball is dribbled defines the location of the player?? That's a newsflash to me...

@tjones: This point system is kinda new to me. So If a player passes it's ball to the backcourt (standing in frontcourt) it's also a violation???

Only when the player has completely gained FC status with both feet and the ball then returns the ball to the BC. If they are dribbling the ball they are in control of it, and it is in the BC. Rainmaker's description earlier describes the criteria very well.

This is simply not true. Re-think this one, smokeeater.

4. Team A player is first to touch after the ball gains bc status.

In fiba rules, that player needs to have BC-position!!

Yes, Scooby. In fact, this would probably be an obvious violation if you were to actually see it. You'd say, "Hey, he can't do that!" Maybe you're just not envisioning it correctly.

But as for your original question, look back at what Rainmaker wrote. Let's go through it.

1. Team control

Team A clearly had team control, b/c A1 was holding a live ball inbounds.

2. Ball with frontcourt status

Since the ball was held -- and not dribbled -- it had frontcourt status as soon as A1 held it with both his feet in the frontcourt. So we definitely have frontcourt status. (If A1 had been dribbling from backcourt to frontcourt, the situation would be different. The ball would actually have to touch in the frontcourt to have frontcourt status. But since A1 caught the ball and held it while in the frontcourt, the dribbling provisions do not apply.)

3. Team A player is last to touch before the ball gains bc status

A1 was the last player to touch the ball before the ball touched in the backcourt.

4. Team A player is first to touch after the ball gains bc status.

When A1 completed the dribble, he was also the first player to touch the ball after it had gained backcourt status.

This is a violation.

I hope that helps a little.

Yea what He said, I meant, only better described..... if that makes any sense.

Or re-smoke whatever you've been puffing on.

;)

Scooby, I always end up going back to the illustration a 30+ year official gave me several years ago. It's like the three legs of a stool. The feet are two legs and the ball is the other. All three have to be in front for FC but once they are there's no going back. I had one Thursday. A1 was being guarded at midcourt after a BC throw in on the side. She had one foot and the ball in FC and then barely raised the back foot and put it back down. Violation -- even though her loud mouthed and not so smart Daddy didn't think so.

As long as we remember that the ball doesn't actually have to touch in the frontcourt if the player is holding it.

Correct, as long as A1 was holding the ball and not dribbling it at the time the backcourt foot was lifted.

The "3-points" thing is a nice guideline, as long as we all remember that it only applies when dribbling from backcourt to frontcourt.

What are you trying to say, J.J.? :)

\

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :D

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Right on all counts!