Seems as if officials, NFHS/NCAA have different
thoughts on "closely guarded" distances. All seem
to know the 3-foot/6-foot count, but, is it measured
from offensive foot to defensive foot, torso to torso,
arm to arm, body to body, etc.
I have seen officials counting when a defensive arm
goes up and then stop the count when defensive arm
goes down.
Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

If any part of the defender is within any part of the ballhandler, I'm counting. So if the defender's hand is the only part that is within 6 feet, I'll count while the hand is out and stop counting when the hand is down.

Reviewing exact wording the book says simply <b>continuously guarded by any opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball.</b>

Step further question. The count ends when the offense "beats" the defender by "getting their head and shoulders past the defender".

Say your burning some clock. Guards are moving parallel with division line but close to a team really wanting the ball.

Is "head and shoulders" realitive to
1) the basket?
2) the direction of the player?

Ref Daddy,
Where do I find the written "head and shoulders" reference?
Thanks.
mick

It's relative to the direction of the player. The rules citation- R10-6-2- sez <b>"If a dribbler ,without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the defender"</b> Case book play 4.23.3SitA spells out the same concept. It relates solely to the path that dribbler is taking, and that path doesn't have to be towards the basket.

The count does end in this case also because the defender lost LGP when the dribbler got by him. The definition of guarding in R4-23-1 sez that guarding is <b>"legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent"</b>. If you're <b>illegally</B> placing your body in an offensive opponent's path, you can't have or be maintaining LGP.

2004 POE:
1. Closely guarded. Well-officiated closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following four areas are to be emphasized:

A. When to start. A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.

A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her front court. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before violating.

B. When to stop. A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet. The count also stops when a closely guarded player (a) completes a dribble anywhere in the team's own front court; (b) starts a dribble in the team's own frontcourt and ends it anywhere in the frontcourt (a new five-second count will start if the player holds the ball); (c) loses possession of the ball for any reason in the team's own frontcourt; or (d) has his or her dribble interrupted. <b>If a closely-guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defensive player, the count has ended.</b>

Thank ya, thank ya!
mick

So are you saying you are dropping a count if A1 is moving backwards or sideways, but B1 is still within 6 feet, because B1 is not in A1 direct path?

If so you are saying that the intent of the rule is to force B1 to defend A1 from a boundary line by re-establishing in A1's new path before we count.

I totally disagree with that interpretation, because if that is the case all A1 would have to do is stay in one spot and pivot away from B1 every 4 seconds.;)

NCAA specifically defines the distance as between the feet of the players.

I tend to use that in NFHS games.

NO! PLEASE, GOD, NO!!! NOT AGAIN!!!! :eek:

Come on it's a legit question, that if you take what JR said literally, you would drop a count.

Direct path is only needed to gain LGP and thus start a count, that is not lost if A1 moves backwards or sideways and B1 moves with them, but not in their direct path, IMO.

Now he's gotchya Chuck. C'mon Chuck, what's the answer now, Chuck?

ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

If you are not facing, you may or may not be in the direct path.

If you are moving laterally to maintain, you are not in the direct path of A1.

I remember reading or hearing the above somewhere "The count ends when the offense "beats" the defender by "getting their head and shoulders past the defender"" but I am unable to verify this in my books.

My understanding that closely guarded shall terminate only when there is an interruption with the players dribble or the defender is not guarding within 6 feet (Rule 9-10, Case 9.10.1 SITUATION A(a) & SITUATION B).

And what is everyone’s reply to when A1 dribbles towards the basket while being closely guarded by B1, and or continues through the free-throw lanes?

I feel a closely guarded situation exists yet my association wants it called off whenever a player dribbles north/south towards the basket.

I vaguely remember possible reading this somewhere but I am unable to located the above <b><font color = red>If a closely-guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defensive player, the count has ended.</font></b> in the books.

I do not have my 2004 books anymore, would you post the reference to where it can be found.

Not to worry, Chuck. There's nowayinhell I'm debating anything with BZ. I learned my lesson. WOBW.

Wouldn't be because I'm right would it?:rolleyes:

Lame to take shots, just answer the question and I'll drop it.

I agree - much more uniform & easier than starting/stopping the count every time the defender extends or withdraws his/her hand.

Now he's gotchya JR. C'mon JR, what's the answer now, JR?

btw...what's WOBW? I know what WWJWD is, and I believe what Jayson Williams would do about now is load that damn shotgun again.

btw...what's WOBW? [/B][/QUOTE]Waste of band width.

Kinda appropriate imo.... :D

Yes, it absolutely is a legitimate question. But as was demonstrated by our previous 30 page thread on this exact same topic last year, there is no conclusive answer. I don't want to have to relive that thread, that's all. :)

Actually there is:

ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

If you are moving laterally you aren't in their path, you are moving parallel or at an angle to their path, yet LGP is not lost. IOW, path is needed to ESTABLISH LGP, but not necessarily to keep it. That applies to closely guarded as well. Once the defender has met the criteria for guarding, all they need is to keep A1 in front of them and be within 6 feet. Head and shoulders only applies to when they are in their direct path, not in every direction.

Actually, there isn't. That's a nice rule reference about maintaining LGP, but not about continuing a closely guarded count. I can be legally guarding you from 40' away. But there's no count.

I am now done with this thread. Lock it!

Lock it but I think his meaning of closely guarded situation is when the defender must be within 6 feet and have LGP.

The closely guarded rule does not imply LGP is needed only that A1 is within 6 feet of B1 and is being guarded.

Being guarded does not imply being in a LGP, correct?

IMO, you can guard a player and not be in a LGP.

2004 POE:
1. Closely guarded. Well-officiated closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following four areas are to be emphasized:

A. When to start. A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.

A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her front court. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before violating.

B. When to stop. A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet. The count also stops when a closely guarded player (a) completes a dribble anywhere in the team's own front court; (b) starts a dribble in the team's own frontcourt and ends it anywhere in the frontcourt (a new five-second count will start if the player holds the ball); (c) loses possession of the ball for any reason in the team's own frontcourt; or (d) has his or her dribble interrupted. If a closely-guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defensive player, the count has ended.

We are in the year 2006, using the 2005-6 books.

And please reference the above information from those 2004 books.

You see anything in the books that said this POE has changed?

Closely guarded requires initial LGP before a count begins.


SECTION 10 CLOSELY GUARDED
A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team's frontcourt, is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball.



SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:

a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

ART. 3 . . . [/b]After the initial legal guarding position is obtained[/b]:

a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

ART. 5 . . . Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:

a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

It's all there, it's just not tied up in a neat little bow.


[Edited by blindzebra on Jan 8th, 2006 at 02:21 AM]