I was working a boys varsity game tonight and in warmups a kid grabbed the rim and pulled it down and it snapped back to its orginial position. Of course my partnet claimed he didnt see it and the head coach of the home team approached us and said I saw A1 grab the rim and pull it down. So I said, looks like we are starting the game with a Technical Foul and the visiting coach has to sit. So my partner, the R, went to the visiting coach and told him the situation. The coach told him that he didnt believe that was a T as long as he didnt dunk. I told the both of them that a player can not grasp the rim during warmups, intermission or while the officials are in jurisdiction of the court. Of course the second part of that is unless he or she is protecting herself, which wasnt the case. The coach said are you (my partner) 100% sure and he (my parnter) said no. I told them I was 100% sure. Long story short, my partner decided that since he wasnt sure, we were not going to charge the visiting team with a T and start the game normal. I was kicking this in my head the whole first half. Then at half time, he looked at the rule book and I was right. He apologized. Any comments on this situation?

I am trying to get this right but who was watching what team?

The home coach comes to you, tells you he saw the play, and you said that it looks like it was a T?

Did anybody really see the play?

Your partner did not see it? did you?

The way you wrote the situation it does not appear you saw it and he said he did not see the situation completely. If that was the case it was something you did not see.

If it was a kicked rule oh well, wont be the first one anyone ever kicked.

1) If you saw the play, it's your call, and you make the final decision. He can come to you with information, but then he has to let you decide what to do.

2) If you didn't see the play, then no one saw it and it can't be called, no matter what the other coach saw.

3) Don't kick yourself all through the first half of the game for one missed call. That's my gig and you're intruding on my patent.

Call what you saw, not what you think you saw.

I saw the play and relayed the information to my parnter who was the R for the nigth. I was watching the home team and happened to glance over at the visiting team and saw it. The home team coach saw the play and was wondering also if it was a "t" and didnt care either way. But no big deal, just getting some input from the board here.

If it's not your side, don't call it. This is one that could be handled by a quick talk with the player rather than the T. If the other coach asks, I'd say I didn't catch exactly what the player did, but talked to the player about staying off the rim.

That would be lying and I have had an evaluator sitting in the stands in another game that it happened and he immediatly came down and asked if I saw what happened. I would rather be safe than sorry.

Nah, I don't agree with that. You're out there to observe both teams. Who's the shooter for White? Who's gonna handle the ball for blue? Are we gonna have play above the rim tonight?

You're "assigned" to one team, but you ought to be watching both to get a feel for who does what. If you see the violation, you should handle it. (That doesn't mean necessarily calling the T if it's borderline; but you handle it.) You don't ignore it, b/c you're supposed to be watching the home team.

I agree, we are a team of officials and if my partner saw the same, I would expect the same.

I agree with checking out the other team, but in the situation, why go looking for a T? The way it was described, yes by rule it's a T, but it could have been avoided with a warning. Not in the rules, but good game management to me.

If you saw it, call it. This isn't the same as staying in your primary during the game. I'd prefer to never start a game with freethrows but in your case, 1/2 the gym probably saw it and by not calling it does not help your integrity. I do not see this as something an R can overrule.

A warning for an obvious pre-game dunk? Please tell me you're kidding.

That isn't good game management. That a lack of testicular fortitude on an official's part.

I didn't say to go looking for a T, did I? In fact, I said it's not necessarily a T, just handle it. My objection was to your contention that you should ignore it, even if you saw it, b/c you're supposed to be watching the other team.

If, on the other hand, half the gym saw it and the other half heard the rim rattle, then you have to have the T, even if you're not "looking" for one.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!! ! :D

Still wishing you'd given the HB coach her 2nd, eh Juulie? :-)

Junker, that is not good game management. IMO this rule should have been enforced.

Here's why I say ignore it. First off, we don't know that it was all that obvious. Did the player literally grab the rim and yank, or get a couple of fingers on it and snap the rim a little? One official passed on it, the other official is on the other side of the court. By rule, there are a number of technicals we can call all the time. We have players flopping and coaches complaining almost nightly and we don not enforce the rule to the letter. We use some management skills and talk to the coaches and players. Yeah, if the kid is grabbing the rim with 2 hands and yanking hard or hanging on the rim, you go get it, but in the post it didn't sound that severe. That's why I said talk to the kid and move on. As we say in a number of posts, you have to be there to see it. On another note, I would never discuss a rule with a partner with coaches involved. It is not going to help you as a crew for the night.

[Edited by Junker on Jan 5th, 2006 at 02:12 PM]

An official saw it. End of story. That's one call that should <b>never</b> be ignored. Management skills have nothing at all to do with this particular situation. It is NOT and never has been a judgement call. It is NOT and never has had anything to do with advantage/disadvantage either.

Junker, nothing personal, but you can make up reasons from here to next year on why you shouldn't call this particular play and I'll still disagree with you. This one is simply an absolute no-brainer imo. We just disagree.

Btw, if you thought it didn't meet the definition of a "dunk", then what can you possibly go and say to that player anyway? "That wasn't a dunk so don't do it again"?

"Hey, that was pretty close to a dunk. Don't make me decide, ok?"

Nope, I never take anything personally here on the board. We're here discussing game situations and on this one, depending on what the situation looked like, I will fully admit I might be wrong with the warning.....but, as Chuck's post read, I have had pregame situations, as I'm sure a lot of us have, where a player has been up around the rim, maybe even touching the rim and we talk to them about it. That was my point. I also don't think any situation is served well when officials are disagreeing with a coach present. If you're not sure, go talk as a crew, come to a decision, and go back to the coaches. Having one official tell coaches it was a T and then the R not calling it is definitely not a good situation.

I was seen by me. The player pulled the rim all the way down and it snapped back into position with a loud clunk. Just grasping the rim is a "t" accourding to Section 3 -

ART. 4 . . . Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.
EXCEPTION: A player may grasp the basket to prevent injury.

Like I said before, you may kick a call, but never a rule!

If you saw it and he yanked it, by all means get it. In your original post I thought it sounded as if the other official passed for a reason. I would encourage you to talk to your partner and come to an agreement before you tell a coach it's a T and then have your partner not administer it. You guys are out there together. If you can't convince him he's wrong, don't sell him out to a coach before the game even starts. Swallow it and have a talk with him using the rules book (like you did) at halftime. Just my opinion of course.