O.....Kaaaayyyyyy!!!!
 

Whatever you say Cameron.

Peace

Re: O.....Kaaaayyyyyy!!!!
 

First, Camron, thanks for the abridged history lesson on Rupp. I recently learned of some of the points you mentioned, but the fact that you produced some evidence painting Rupp as something other than the hardened, intransigent biggot that he is commonly portrayed as is certainly cause for more research on my part.

I just read a wonderful piece on the integration of the ACC that I'm sure you would (and presumably some others) enjoy.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/main/index.cgi?7153

Rut,

Despite our intermittent run-ins here, you might be surprised to know that we have a great deal in common when it comes to how we perceive the prevalence and influence of racism in this culture. With that said, however, I have to call you out on your out-of-hand dismissal of Camron's posts on Rupp. When someone takes the time to post evidence to mitigate against the popular perception of a reputed racist, then we should do one of maybe three things: 1) admit we're wrong and change our minds, 2) reserve judgment until we see further evidence or do our own research, or 3) respond directly with counter-evidence of our own.

When the choice is 4), "say 'whatever' to person presenting countervailing evidence," a perfectly reasonable conclusion is for others to say, "It doesn't matter what kind of evidence is presented; that guy thinks everybody's a racist, and nobody's going to convince him otherwise, so why try? This isn't necessarily fair, but it's not crazy. Unfortunately, though, it's even worse than that. Because in addition, it makes it easier for those people to ignore real cases of racism, because some of those trying to point out such instances are the same people who put up a wall when counter-evidence is presented in a case.

I have been influenced by popular perceptions of Rupp. I also recognize, though, that the mass media have done a good job of manufacturing some convenient arch-villains that the public can recognize and universally condemn, so that everyone can feel good about how wonderfully pure they are, since they are not Rupp. In addition to allowing many to feel good about themselves, it takes many off the hook who do not fit the profile of pure evil that the popular Rupp profile does, but who nevertheless do not have pure souls.

The popular images of racists are people like Rupp, George Wallace and Bull Conner, David Duke. But notice how convenient this construction is. If these people (or what we think of when we think of these people, accurate or not) and their respective characters are (as in equivalent to) racists, then it's very easy and even natural for people to believe that if they're not as bad as those images, then they're not themselves racist. You and I know that you don't have to have turned police dogs and firehoses on peaceful Birmingham marchers to be a racist, but on a sub-conscious level, many others don't.

If those of us who know better can change this construction, then we can help change the world by making it easier for people to see that the more virulent forms of racism (by virtue of being more prevalent) come in more discrete outfits (e.g. 28 and 40).

Peace (no sarcasm intended)

Re: Re: O.....Kaaaayyyyyy!!!!
 

Mr. Grammar Guy just sent me an e-mail saying he can't get onto the board this morning, for some reason, so would I please correct your use of the word "discrete". He thinks you mean "discreet". I'm not 100% sure of this, since I don't understand the reference to 28 and 40. But I'm just passing the message along.

There's another mass psychology item which functions in this examinations of an individual's actions and motivations, and that's "us/them" thinking. In America, we tend to see everyone and everything in binary terms. Either you are a racist or you're not. You're a good guy or a bad guy. You're friend or foe. You're saint or sinner. Us or them. This simplism is very debilitating, I think, and part of the problem with the American culture today. We cant think in terms of multitude possibilities, can't respond adequately to a complex, nuanced situation with many possible outcomes.

Rupp may have been very racist, but struggling to overcome it. Or he may have been a racist with some more egalitarian "blind spots". Or he may have seen the political value in acting certain ways. Or lots of other possibilities. But it's easier for us to just dismiss him out of hand, so we put him in a category, and ignore anything else that happens.

Rut, I'm not saying you're doing this, although you might be. I'm saying this kind of thinking is very prevalent in our society, and I think it's inhibiting to complete understanding of our circumstances.

George Wallace later in life did something unusual...he admitted that he was wrong.

If I get really deep into this discussion the typical so called elite of this board is going to get mad and upset by what I say.

Secondly, just because someone says something one way, does not make it true or make everyone that reads it have to accept it.

Thirdly, racism is not about wearing a KKK hood and the actions surrounding being a member. Rupp was known to have made statements very negative about Black players that he played against or were being recruited by other schools. Also Black players in the state of Kentucky decided to go to other schools in the south instead of go to Kentucky because they felt Rupp was not genuine when he was "recruiting" them.

The Bottom line Cameron has the right to his opinion. That does not make him a bad person. Just do not try to rewrite history and the opinions of those that were around during that time. I guess if Cameron feels Rupp was not a racist, all the great basketball players that went to other schools were completely and totally wrong? At some point white people have to accept the fact that people of color are not going to accept your positions on race just because you feel someone is not racist or an action is not racist. Rupp side himself with the very racist side of Kentucky and parts of the south and talked openly about not have Black players at his university. It also took almost 30 years for that university to hire a Black coach in a program where a majority of their players were Black to begin with. Rupp's legacy is easy to see for many that look like me.

Peace

This conversation is useless. There is no amount of education that can really bring someone up to speed on these issues. There isn't enough intellect in the world that can replace a natural instinct. I get so sick of rational arguments and people saying something along the line of "that isn't true." I will stop right there, this is too useless!

(Credit for most of my content goes to Jon Scott, who has done an incredible amound of research on this topic)

Rupp was know to have made statements very negative about all players that he played against, not just blacks.

"Rupp was unique," said Bill Spivey, a Kentucky star in the 1950s. "He wanted everybody to hate him and he succeeded. He called us names some of us had never heard before." - by Dave Kindred, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "The Baron Made Basketball Important," March 16, 1997.

"Adolph would never allow himself to get close to the players," [former player Tommy] Kron said. "He was a tough, gruff kind of guy who would verbally abuse his players to get them to play harder." by Jo-Ann Barnas, Detroit Free Press, "They Changed the Game: Texas Western," March 29, 1996.

If you check out his recruiting style, he essentially let players come to him. He'd fail miserable as a recruiter by today's standards (and yesterday') if it weren't for the natural draw of playing for such a powerhouse team.

...he was never intimately involved or interested in recruiting. This was a man who, before the NCAA outlawed the practice, used to hold a tryout of high school players during the summer where he would pick the cream of the crop for enrollment at the University, and send the other players throughout the rest of the South to find a roster spot. This was a man who had an All-American [James Jordan from North Carolina] approach him and ask to transfer to Kentucky, despite Rupp telling him he didn't think he was the kind of player suited to the fast-paced style of the Wildcats.

During the latter stages of his career, he had attained his stature within college basketball and wasn't used to having to go out and work for talent. Much of the recruiting work was delegated to his assistants and even his players at time. Rupp has been criticized subsequently by those who are intent on making Rupp's lack of effort in recruiting blacks during the latter stage of his career as evidence of his racist attitude. No doubt Rupp felt somewhat uncomfortable recruiting blacks who he had previously only had minimal contact with. But Rupp did make an effort to recruit. These critics, when studying his recruiting efforts of black athletes, fail to comprehend his recruiting practices of most all athletes.

"Let me assure you that even if you were white and 7 feet, 8 inches tall, and you came in to see Mr. Rupp, he would just sit there and look at you. You wouldn't get any feeling that, 'Boy, you're just terribly important to us.' And we were at a time when these young black athletes needed to be told, 'We want you more than anything else. Here's a sense of the kind of life you'll have on campus.' He just didn't have that." - Quote by Robert Johnson in book by Frank Fitzpatrick, And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Simon & Schuster, 1999, pg. 146.

"My view of that is I do not subscribe to the group that thinks that Adolph was a racist. I believe that for two reasons. One, he wanted to win too much. And the other reason is Adolph had reached that point where he didn't recruit much of anyone. He was so used to potential All-America coming to him that he just didn't get off his duff to recruit." - Quote by Robert Johnson in book by Frank Fitzpatrick, And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Simon & Schuster, 1999, pg. 148.


"Practically every day his senior year, Butch Beard said, 'some Kentucky alum' came by his home. 'They wanted Kentucky to be the first to integrate the SEC. They said if Adolph did it, everybody would.'" - by Dave Kindred, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, "Facts Belie Stereotype of Racist Rupp at UK," May 11, 1997.

If you'd even take a moment to set aside your agenda, you'd perhaps realize that "history" is not as you seem to know it. "History" used to automatically categorize blacks in a bad light. Much of that has been corrected over the years. The pendulum swung the other way after the civil rights movement...looking for prominent individuals to classify as racist despite reality.


Check out the opinions of those actually around at that time....the Texas Western players universally report that race was not an issue.

"We didn't see this as a black-white thing -- we just loved to play ball," - Bobby Joe "Slop" Hill, Texas Western Guard, Bergen Record, March 3, 1996.

"For us, I honestly don't think it was a black-white thing. It was Texas Western going up against Kentucky, who's been there before." - Nevil "The Shadow" Shed, by Jack Wilkinson, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, April 1, 1991.

"It just happened that we had five black starters, and Kentucky had five white starters. We were never coached like that. We weren't into black-white. There weren't any racial slurs. We never heard Pat Riley, Louie Dampier, those great Kentucky players, say a word." - David Lattin, by Dave Kindred The Sporting News, "Haskins truly put his heart into game. Winner of 719 games, national title had his share of suffering," August 31, 1999.

"To us it was a pride game," said Texas Western's Harry Flournoy. "It was just simply an opportunity to show the nation what we had. We didn't say, 'We're going to go out there and whip those white players' butts.'" - by Pat Forde, USA Today, "Legacy of Rupp Slow to Recede Repercussions of 1966 Title Game Still Echo in Many Ears," April 2, 1996.

"That part [black-white] never crossed our minds," say former Texas Western guard Orsten Artis. - by Curry Kirkpatrick, Sports Illustrated, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down," April 1, 1991.


Several of those black players who went to other schools have been quoted as saying they didn't want to be the first one....not that UK/Rupp didn't want them. At some point black people will have to accept that fact that white people are not going to accept your positions on race just because you feel someone is racist or an action is racist.

The pattern of black players is essentially the same for nearly all major universities. To single out Rupp and UK is disinginueous and clearly reeks of jealousy more than racism.

So what if it took thirty years to before UK had a black coach. The fact that 20% of UK's coaches since 1930 have been black is far above most, if not all, of the nation
s major colleges. I don't see a black coach at Duke or UNC or Indiana. Does that make Smith, Knight, or Krzyzewski
racists.

Camron, Camron, Camron.

Believe what you want to believe. None of what you have stated in your post is going to change my mind and certainly not going to change the minds of others. Let us move on.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 8th, 2006 at 06:27 PM]

It's clear that your mind is closed and unwilling to consider what the man actually did instead of the rumors an emotions you hold onto. History is full of people who were portrayed with lies and deception to further an agenda. Do you not think it is a valuable recruiting tool for opposing recruiters to use...especially against the most dominant program across the decades?

The points you make...along the lines of so-and-so said this, who heard if from someone who heard it from someone...are, while sensationial and worthy of the National Enquirer, are at best gossip. Rupp is a popular target because he was famous and happened to be on the wrong side of a historic event. The point of him being a racist didn't even arise until 20 years after his death...when it became fasionable to peg people as racists and writers decided to rewrite the Texas Western game as a racial event when none of the participants even agree that was the case.

It would be a lot more fair to pick someone who can defend himself than to accuse someone who can't answer the accusations.

Camron, I like the fact that you are passionate about this issue, but I do not have to accept your way of thinking just because you post this on a discussion board does not change the feeling that I have on this issue. I am sorry that that upsets you, but I have observed, read, and listen to those that lived at that time and simply used that information and came to my own conclusion.

We could debate this to the end of time. I do not have to accept your point of view (and I will not accept your point of view) on this issue just because you say it is so.

I think anyone here or any place can say whatever they want to about someone that was in a public position. Rupp has his name on a building that is at a public university and anyone has the right to debate the legacy of that individual. It is very fair for anyone to make comments about this man because a lot of the things he did or said were clearly in the light in very public. It is not like Rupp was saying things and behaving in ways behind closed doors. Kentucky had such a legacy of racism and sexism that they currently have in place by law that the officials that work the state finals have to fit a certain racial and gender breakdown each year because of that history(according to a Larry Boucher, Kentucky High School Athletic Association official while speaking at the IHSA Official's Convention in 2004). We can debate all day what Rupp did or did not do, it is not going to matter one bit. It is an interesting debate, but not a significant one.

Peace

That says it all. You don't care what he actually did...only what others have told you to conclude about him. Pretty sad.

What is pretty sad is the fact that you have the nerve to say someone is close-minded. IMO, you have no right to say what you are saying.

I guess I shouldn't read this thread anymore.

Why is my opinion on this so important to you? I am just one person that you do not know at all. If you feel Rupp was the greatest man that ever lived, why does it matter to you if I think he was not?

Peace

Why should one person have a right to <b>their</b> own opinion, and another person doesn't have exactly the same right to their opinion also, Tom? Talk about being sad..and close minded......

Pot....kettle....black...

JR, do you really want me to answer that question? Although you are old enough to know, maybe you don't understand either. Maybe you should think about why I'm saying that.