I was just wondering how you guys would handle this (or if there are specific rules regarding this).

In my daughter's game this weekend the opposing head coach yelled at least three racial slurs during the third quarter (three were audible to people from our team, who knows what else was said in their huddle). Two N bombs directed at the refs regarding our players and in one case he called our guard a monkey.

I know how these officials handled it, they T-ed him up a couple times and tossed him.

I was just wondering if this kind of crap happens very often in games that you guys work, and what you will do if you hear this kind of garbage?

I was also thinking of writing a letter to the school system to inform them of what kind of image this guy is giving their school. This is only a 7th grade team, and they were playing in a out of town independent of school tournament, so I'm not sure that they would necessarily find out about it, unless someone spoke up. We were an out of state, club team, playing a school team from their state, but in a different part of the state. Do you think this is a good idea or not?

By the way, I posted a question on here a month or so ago (as a first time poster) and have been returning to read your board from time to time. I really enjoy the angle I get by reading about basketball from the refs point of view.

Thanks alot,

Mike

I've never had this happen in any of my games. Sounds like a good ejection to me. I think a letter to the school would be appropriate. 7th grade kids shouldn't have to be subject to such ignorance and anger.

Z

That type of comment is a flagrant act and the only way to handle it is to eject the guilty party.

If I were a parent, and heard those kinds of things, you can bet I'd be writing a letter. I might even try to pressure the tournament organizer to write a letter or two, and to permanently ban the coach from any further participation in that tourney.

As a ref, I'd have tossed him on the first one, and seen to it that he got kicked out of the tournament. I can't believe the refs in your sitch let him get to three of these kinds of statements.

We don't get a lot of this stuff around here, at least not that egregious. I've had a couple of coaches talk about "playing the race card" a time or two, but I usually put a stop to that kind of talk pretty quickly.

We are always glad to have fans/parents see things from our point of view -- it happens very rarely!!

Amen Rainmaker! He wpould have never have gotten the second slur out of his puss, I would've run da' bum!

Definitely write the letter, to both the principal of the school and to the superintendent or whomever is the head honcho in that area. And make sure that the principal knows that his boss has been CC'd on it.

DO contact the school. They can't do anything if they are not aware. They will appreciate knowing about this guy's behavior. Being crude is one thing and using racial slurs is quite different. This guy needs to correct his behavior ASAP or not be around kids.

I'd call the principal and also send a letter to verify that you contacted him. "This letter is a follow-up to our conversation of ..... so that you have a record of what happened with that coach." The letter is just in case the principal is of the old school where you ignore such incidents. That way you are covered and can show (keep a copy of the letter) that you reported the incident. The principal should be aware that this is a serious situation and that he is required to deal with it.

As a former principal, I know that I would have appreciated knowing what took place.

Agree with all of the above. The guy should not be coaching. Write the letter.

As a current high school administrator I would want to know. Send the letter.

FWIW In our association we are not allowed to contact the school directly, we must go through our commissioner.

Send the letter certified with return receipt requested. There is no place for that kind of behavior. Bravo for the officials getting rid of the guy. And if there was no assistant coach then it should also have been a forfeit. You can bet if the team had no more games that there would be some pretty worked up parents on THAT side of the ledger as well.

I personally do not know what writing a letter is going to do. If the coach was ejected from the game, I am sure the tournament director or officials are aware of why there was an ejection. Someone is going to know why on some level why there was an ejection. An ejection like this is not likely going to be something no one is going to be unaware of. Writing a letter could not hurt, just understand that it might turn into a he said, she said situation.

Peace

It may well. However useful things that may still be accomplished. First, even if the coach talks his way out of it, if he's got half a brain, he's a lot more likely be behave himself in the future. Second, the coach's behavior in this incident may be part of a larger pattern. If this isn't the first letter the school has received, it'll make more of a difference. If it is the first letter, it may turn out to be the first of many to come.

The original post-er was watching as a parent, not a ref. A ref should follow whatever protocol is prescribed. Even so, in this area, a lot of these junior high tournaments aren't assigned by our association, and a ref would have no one to report this to, if not directly to the school. In this case, I think it would be critical that a ref not shrug it off, but be certain that the "higher-up" folks are aware of the situation.

Either way it still might not matter. The poster wants to know what we think. The reality is writing a letter is not an automatic problem solver for this kind of situation. It is possible that the school administrators might not even take heed to the information. Not all administration members are competent or use the best judgment. You might need independent evidence to prove that is what actually took place. Now the ejection will help, but I have known these situations not to be accepted so easily by school administration. Of course it is worth a try; just do not be surprised if the information is not accepted. You never know what relationship this guy has with his administration. For all you know he might be apart of that administration. We have HS that have nicknames that are offensive to people all over this country. You think one coach using an offensive name is going to automatically make a difference?

Peace

It sounds like it was easily heard. Getting it documented is very important. I highly doubt that this incident is the first time this coach has been inappropriate... I find it hard to believe he's going to make 3 idiotic comments in one game with no prior history, but maybe nobody ever took the time to document it before. A written record is very important.

Z

How is this going to be a written record? All a letter is going to do is give one side of the story from one parent. By all means write the letter, but to assume that there had to be a trail of incidents is rather naive if you ask me. It is very possible this is the only incident.

Peace

This may well be the case. Which is why I suggested sending a copy of the letter to the superintendent, and letting the principal know that he'd been copied on it. While it's possible that they might all choose to ignore it, there is a certain amount of pressure brought to bear when one knows that his boss has been informed of a situation that needs addressing.

It is also true that one letter from one parent may have little impact. But many letters from many parents will have a greater impact. And that can only happen if individuals are willing to go to the trouble, regardless of the possible outcome.

Just my opinion.

I didn't know that Adolph Rupp was back in Coaching?

Here's when you know you're old.....I remember Pat Riley jumping Center for Kentucky! Pat had hops in his day.

Every documented incident is "one side of the story" regardless of who it comes from. That's why things get written down, to show a pattern. What's naive is to think that this "adult" coach made 3 racial slurs in one game and has never done it before this far into the season.

Z

More than likely, the officials have already passed this information along. You're letter will reenforce their report of the situation. If multiple parents heard the comments, I'd try to get all of their names and contact information to include it as well.

As someone in the "educational" world, a letter will do something - it will cause the school to question the coach involved. All he has to do is deny the charges, however, and not much more than a verbal reprimand will happen...on the other hand, getting a copy of a video that some other parent took, and sending that in to the school - especially if the coach's voice can be heard, now that would cause some action...

This is a parent who posted the thread.

The coach should have been tossed after the first racial slur? As a coach, I am turned back by this type of behavior. It has no place in basketball period, but much less saying these things in the presence of a child. Coaches are role models to many kids and this guy should have coached his last game.

Definetly send the letter. Express your displeasure. As a coach, I know our AD/Adminstrators would never stand for this.

Yea-but, the next best thing to coach being punished/or terminated would be to make him stop. If he knows the paper trail is started, he'll probably knock it off.

We recently had a situation where one of the parents thought our coach sent the girls "head-hunting". After several parents asked their daughters, it seems that this parent misunderstood what was said. None of the girls heard her say to go hurt the other team and none of them interpreted it that way. IOW, maybe your coach said "You girls are better then this, show some energy. Get out there and play spunky". You thought you heard coach say monkey. ??

I don't want to doubt what you are sure you heard either way. If others heard the same as you, then send the letter.

Great comments.


My contribution to this situation (which I have NOT had personally) asks - since there is no way on earth that this coach just started using racial slurs and comments on the date and time of your game - I wonder what their behavior was previously.

As responses all indicate the behavior of this individual is unacceptable to fans, players, referee's, opponents, and school administrators.

Take the required action to remove it. Failing to do so passes the bad behavior on to the next practice and next game.

Well that sounds nice and it is nice to speculate on what the coach did before. At the end of the day that is all it is, speculation. None of our speculation is not make the letter any more believable to the person that reads it. As I have stated before, I have seen letters written and nothing was done. A fan that is not from that school or community might want to be aware that their letter might fall on deaf ears. We do not even know why the officials ejected the coach or if this was the words that got the coach in trouble. Writing a letter as a parent might raise questions, but it does not mean the superintendent or principal is going to go for what the parent says. For all we know is the coach could be the relative of superintendent and they will not believe anything negative about them. I have been on this board and read when someone made an accusation of another person and read the reaction. Then throw in something as hot as racial issues into the mix and you see many more defending the people coming to the aid of the accused and telling the accuser how crazy they are. If people behave like that here, why would I think someone that knows a person much better than most of us would here act so differently when an anonymous person makes an accusation about someone they hired or know personally? You have to be prepared for the good and the bad of what might happen. BTW, I think any letter being written or contact better comes from the tournament officials and the game officials. What ever happen to talking to the people that are in charge of the game rather than first going to someone that was not there at the game or will hear all this information second and third hand? If I was this parent I would have talked to someone on site, see what they were going to do and then write a letter if I did not get the right vibe from them. We all have the right to our opinion on this. I do not know that there is a right or wrong either way.

Peace

Jeff, you sound downright cynical! Can't imagine why....

Seriously, though, as a diehard bleeding heart liberal, I have to hope that enough action would bring about some improvement in the situation. At the same time you are right that it's possible nothing will get better. There are still a few (!) jerks and weaklings who wouldn't see this as a huge problem.

I do think that tackling both site management and the school personnel would be the most fruitful possibility. As you say, it's possible that if one of these venues isn't concerned, the other one would be upset enough to get this guy away from kids.

Or maybe he actually called him a monkey and pulled a banana outta his bag.

I have lived long enough in this world and seen many situations like this where nothing was done or comments were disputed. Racial issues are something this country and many people like to sweep under the rug all the time. It happens here most of the time we have a discussion about racial issues. It happens in sports all over the area I live and in many other aspects of life. When these accusations are made many times the accuser is not believed or the motive of the accuser comes into question. This is really the case when the people in charge either feel the same was (as the coach in this case) or they do not want to believe their coach would say such a thing. Remember there are other comments that have racial overtones that do not start with the letter "N." I have been called things that did not start with that word and when I brought it to someone's attention that was not of my race or background. I basically was told that "I was being too sensitive." Then when I talked to other African-Americans, they got the same vibe that I did about the situation. I do not know the race of this parent, but it is possible that that dynamic might just not go anywhere if this person is of color and the people they are trying to convince someone that are not African-American that this coach was out of line. I really think it is silly if we honestly believe someone is going to lose their job over (this might be a teacher or school employee) what a parent writing a letter. It would not hurt, but I think you need more than a letter. You need other individuals to write letters and it would help if the tournament people and officials had some correspondence with that school as well. I would also follow up to make sure there was some contact if it was worth my time.

My main point is we are not going to save the world because this coach is fired or not. I am sure this coach has used that language before, but it might be the first time they did so in this setting. I think a lot of people say things behind closed doors they almost never say in public or around certain people. This is probably just a situation where this coach misspoke and paid for it by getting ejected. But to think something major is going to happen with a letter being written is not very sensible if you ask me.

Peace

We may not "save" the world, but we might make it a better place. Write the letter.

Rosa Parks, who Rut rightly eulogizes in his signature line, took a simple - yet courageous - stand because it was the right thing to do. In doing so, she showed all of us that the simple actions of regular people (like us) DO make a difference in the world. None of us, alone, can "save" the world, but we can "change" it, little by little. Write the letter.

Great post....

What Rosa Parks did was against the law and was trying to take a stand for social significance to change the law. Also what Rosa Parks did was just a spark, the actions afterwards were of bigger significance. Also remember Ms Parks worked with the local NAACP Board at the time and her stand was very enlightened and calculating. Writing a letter about a coach that uses a word has little or no large social significance. If I got upset every time someone used language I found objectionable, I would be writing letters all the time. You have to learn to know when to fight certain battles, for me as an African-American it would not be one of them.

Peace

You're right Jeff. Writing the letter might not change the behavior. We don't know.

What is certain is that nothing will be done if the letter isn't written.

Call the school. Talk to the tournament people (which they will contact the school directly). Maybe you could have your program contact the school. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. Writing a letter is not the only thing you can do. Sorry, it is not. I know I have complained about a lot of things and chance took place and I did not have to write a letter.

Peace

Thank you, Jeff, for confirming my point. Ms. Parks, a regular person (even regular people can be, and are, enlightened), provided a spark. To be sure, not every spark starts a fire (and here, I think I am confirming your point!); but that's often how fires are started. In my opinion, a spark, in whatever form, that might result in the censure or removal of a coach/educator who uses racial epithets like described in this thread IS socially significant.

Thanks guys and gals,

I really appreciate your feedback. I realize that a letter might very well fall on deaf ears, but I went ahead and wrote the letter, and will mail it tomorrow. In the end I figured it couldn't hurt. I CC'ed all administrators that I could find.

While I think my motives might come into question, if they take an honest look at the situation...I'm not from their state, I don't know their school, and we are highly unlikely to ever see this team again.

For a couple posters who asked, I'm a white guy. However my step daughter is African American. Our team's racial makeup is about 50:50. Not suprisingly, this guys team is 100% white, they were getting spanked by about 25 when this guy went off. His specific comments were:

"You gonna let that big, corn-fed N____ run all over my girls" to the ref.

"Play defense on that monkey" yelled towards his team.

and as he was being ejected, towards the refs "If you weren't such a God D@#ned N______ lover you would have seen that charging call". I honestly thought he was going to attempt to slug the ref when he made this last comment

All of these comments were made loud enough to be heard by many spectators.

Suprisingly this guy was back at the tournament for the game the next day. We played them again, he behaved himself this time.

Sorry for it taking so long to reply, I've been at the hospital welcoming my new daughter to the world.

Thanks again to all who replied,

Mike

PS - The Adolf Rupp comment made me laugh, if you only knew how close this tournament was to Lexington.

[Edited by grizwald on Jan 5th, 2006 at 11:37 PM]

If you only knew how inaccurate the popular portrayals of Adolf Rupp are. The man may not have been the pioneer that some were but he was far from the villian that many make him out to be. He had racially mixed teams (by choice) as early as the 20's. He attempted to sign black players well before any of them actually came to Kentucky. There were a lot of other forces going on in the south in those days that contributed to the lack of black players at Kentucky. Racists were (and still are) plentiful but the evidence strongly suggests (but does not prove) he was not one of them.

I apologize if I slandered Rupp. I certainly know of no proof that he was racist. I heard the same said of Bobby Jones and did a Web Serach one night and read alot of biolgraphical material on him. I could find no record saying that he was personally racist. Like you say, there were and are a lot of forces both in the South and the North that contribute.

With regard to this Coach, I can't believe any School System would have a guy like that representing them? It's a disgrace. How can the parents of his players let that kind of behavior slide? It's hard to believe.

Now this is one of the funniest posts I have ever read. ;)

Peace

What's so funny about it? Do you not belive it.

For several decades, he was the only coach (or one of a very small minority) in the SEC that would play opponents that were not compltely white. Other SEC schools actually turned down NCAA bids because they would have to play teams with other than white players. Several players that could have played at UK didn't, not because Rupp didn't recruit or want them, but becuase they'd have to play in deep south towns where their safety would be in jeaporday if those towns would have even let them in the arena.

Before you vilify the man or believe those that do, khow the facts.

I will put it to you this way. I will believe the people that were good enough to play for Kentucky and played for neighboring school like Louisville and what they thought of Coach Rupp. Was the Texas Western program in the Deep South? I guess Oscar Robinson never played southern school when he was a Cincinnati either or any other Black player at that time? There is a term that I have heard all my life as it related to race relations. “Up South” and “Down South” are terms used by many Black people at that time and still today. Just because Black people lived in the south did not mean they had that much of an easier road.

Peace

What does Texas Western have to do with this discussion. The mere fact that you mention them just goes to show you have prejudged UK without actually knowing anything about them or their coach or WHO was actually behind the composition of the team. UK played them as they would any other team. The fact that it was the first time it was 5 whites vs. 5 blacks in a high profile game doesn't make the team/coach with 5 whites racists any more than it makes the team with 5 blacks racists.

Oscar Robinson wasn't even in college when those deep south schools were at their worst. I never said the Big O or other Blacks didn't play in the south. I said several SEC schools wouldn't schedule games against opponents with black players (where Rupp and UK would freely do). Since UK was in the SEC, 18 games per year would be against those teams. Not all school's programs had racists practices.

Oscar did actually play for Rupp on an all-star team at one point.

I also never said anything about blacks in the south having an easier or harder time. In fact, I'd guess that the blacks in the south had a miserable time. The way they were generally treated was dispicable.

Here are a few quotes from Rupp:

As the fifties came to a close, it became a legitimate question of when the University of Kentucky would integrate its basketball team. Rupp did start dropping small hints that he would like to recruit black players but his did not go far enough to satisfy those looking to him to take the first step.

"A national magazine article on Oscar Robertson sparked criticism of Rupp in Lexington when it mentioned that the coach had considered recruiting the black star.
" - by Frank Fitzpatrick, And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Simon & Schuster, 1999, pg. 103)

Adolph Rupp was once asked if he would have liked to have had Wilt Chamberlain, the Philadelphia sensation who played for Kansas in the late 1950s. "Sure," Rupp said, "but could I take him to Atlanta and New Orleans or Starkville ?" - by Chip Alexander, Raleigh News and Observer, "Remembering Rupp," 1997.

Rupp announced in 1961 [5 years before the game against UTEP/Texas Wester] that he would sign and play black athletes. SEC schools which did not want to play UK would have to forfeit the games. When he learned that Mississippi State Coach Babe McCarthy secretly snuck his team out of the state in order to attend the NCAA Tournament, against state regulations, Rupp said, "That took some nerve on his part. Maybe that will wise those people up down there." - Adolph Rupp, Kentucky's Basketball Baron, - JNB

Sounds like the guy was not so racist afterall...maybe a little unwilling to stick his neck out but not racist.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jan 6th, 2006 at 07:46 PM]

If the Original Poster is to write a letter, I'd stress making sure it's professional in tone.

While it doesn't guarantee any action, it will be given more credibility than a poorly written letter or one that rants.

At camp this summer, I learned that "Up South" means going to Atlanta from Savannah. :)

O.....Kaaaayyyyyy!!!!
 

Whatever you say Cameron.

Peace

Re: O.....Kaaaayyyyyy!!!!
 

First, Camron, thanks for the abridged history lesson on Rupp. I recently learned of some of the points you mentioned, but the fact that you produced some evidence painting Rupp as something other than the hardened, intransigent biggot that he is commonly portrayed as is certainly cause for more research on my part.

I just read a wonderful piece on the integration of the ACC that I'm sure you would (and presumably some others) enjoy.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/main/index.cgi?7153

Rut,

Despite our intermittent run-ins here, you might be surprised to know that we have a great deal in common when it comes to how we perceive the prevalence and influence of racism in this culture. With that said, however, I have to call you out on your out-of-hand dismissal of Camron's posts on Rupp. When someone takes the time to post evidence to mitigate against the popular perception of a reputed racist, then we should do one of maybe three things: 1) admit we're wrong and change our minds, 2) reserve judgment until we see further evidence or do our own research, or 3) respond directly with counter-evidence of our own.

When the choice is 4), "say 'whatever' to person presenting countervailing evidence," a perfectly reasonable conclusion is for others to say, "It doesn't matter what kind of evidence is presented; that guy thinks everybody's a racist, and nobody's going to convince him otherwise, so why try? This isn't necessarily fair, but it's not crazy. Unfortunately, though, it's even worse than that. Because in addition, it makes it easier for those people to ignore real cases of racism, because some of those trying to point out such instances are the same people who put up a wall when counter-evidence is presented in a case.

I have been influenced by popular perceptions of Rupp. I also recognize, though, that the mass media have done a good job of manufacturing some convenient arch-villains that the public can recognize and universally condemn, so that everyone can feel good about how wonderfully pure they are, since they are not Rupp. In addition to allowing many to feel good about themselves, it takes many off the hook who do not fit the profile of pure evil that the popular Rupp profile does, but who nevertheless do not have pure souls.

The popular images of racists are people like Rupp, George Wallace and Bull Conner, David Duke. But notice how convenient this construction is. If these people (or what we think of when we think of these people, accurate or not) and their respective characters are (as in equivalent to) racists, then it's very easy and even natural for people to believe that if they're not as bad as those images, then they're not themselves racist. You and I know that you don't have to have turned police dogs and firehoses on peaceful Birmingham marchers to be a racist, but on a sub-conscious level, many others don't.

If those of us who know better can change this construction, then we can help change the world by making it easier for people to see that the more virulent forms of racism (by virtue of being more prevalent) come in more discrete outfits (e.g. 28 and 40).

Peace (no sarcasm intended)

Re: Re: O.....Kaaaayyyyyy!!!!
 

Mr. Grammar Guy just sent me an e-mail saying he can't get onto the board this morning, for some reason, so would I please correct your use of the word "discrete". He thinks you mean "discreet". I'm not 100% sure of this, since I don't understand the reference to 28 and 40. But I'm just passing the message along.

There's another mass psychology item which functions in this examinations of an individual's actions and motivations, and that's "us/them" thinking. In America, we tend to see everyone and everything in binary terms. Either you are a racist or you're not. You're a good guy or a bad guy. You're friend or foe. You're saint or sinner. Us or them. This simplism is very debilitating, I think, and part of the problem with the American culture today. We cant think in terms of multitude possibilities, can't respond adequately to a complex, nuanced situation with many possible outcomes.

Rupp may have been very racist, but struggling to overcome it. Or he may have been a racist with some more egalitarian "blind spots". Or he may have seen the political value in acting certain ways. Or lots of other possibilities. But it's easier for us to just dismiss him out of hand, so we put him in a category, and ignore anything else that happens.

Rut, I'm not saying you're doing this, although you might be. I'm saying this kind of thinking is very prevalent in our society, and I think it's inhibiting to complete understanding of our circumstances.

George Wallace later in life did something unusual...he admitted that he was wrong.

If I get really deep into this discussion the typical so called elite of this board is going to get mad and upset by what I say.

Secondly, just because someone says something one way, does not make it true or make everyone that reads it have to accept it.

Thirdly, racism is not about wearing a KKK hood and the actions surrounding being a member. Rupp was known to have made statements very negative about Black players that he played against or were being recruited by other schools. Also Black players in the state of Kentucky decided to go to other schools in the south instead of go to Kentucky because they felt Rupp was not genuine when he was "recruiting" them.

The Bottom line Cameron has the right to his opinion. That does not make him a bad person. Just do not try to rewrite history and the opinions of those that were around during that time. I guess if Cameron feels Rupp was not a racist, all the great basketball players that went to other schools were completely and totally wrong? At some point white people have to accept the fact that people of color are not going to accept your positions on race just because you feel someone is not racist or an action is not racist. Rupp side himself with the very racist side of Kentucky and parts of the south and talked openly about not have Black players at his university. It also took almost 30 years for that university to hire a Black coach in a program where a majority of their players were Black to begin with. Rupp's legacy is easy to see for many that look like me.

Peace

This conversation is useless. There is no amount of education that can really bring someone up to speed on these issues. There isn't enough intellect in the world that can replace a natural instinct. I get so sick of rational arguments and people saying something along the line of "that isn't true." I will stop right there, this is too useless!

(Credit for most of my content goes to Jon Scott, who has done an incredible amound of research on this topic)

Rupp was know to have made statements very negative about all players that he played against, not just blacks.

"Rupp was unique," said Bill Spivey, a Kentucky star in the 1950s. "He wanted everybody to hate him and he succeeded. He called us names some of us had never heard before." - by Dave Kindred, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "The Baron Made Basketball Important," March 16, 1997.

"Adolph would never allow himself to get close to the players," [former player Tommy] Kron said. "He was a tough, gruff kind of guy who would verbally abuse his players to get them to play harder." by Jo-Ann Barnas, Detroit Free Press, "They Changed the Game: Texas Western," March 29, 1996.

If you check out his recruiting style, he essentially let players come to him. He'd fail miserable as a recruiter by today's standards (and yesterday') if it weren't for the natural draw of playing for such a powerhouse team.

...he was never intimately involved or interested in recruiting. This was a man who, before the NCAA outlawed the practice, used to hold a tryout of high school players during the summer where he would pick the cream of the crop for enrollment at the University, and send the other players throughout the rest of the South to find a roster spot. This was a man who had an All-American [James Jordan from North Carolina] approach him and ask to transfer to Kentucky, despite Rupp telling him he didn't think he was the kind of player suited to the fast-paced style of the Wildcats.

During the latter stages of his career, he had attained his stature within college basketball and wasn't used to having to go out and work for talent. Much of the recruiting work was delegated to his assistants and even his players at time. Rupp has been criticized subsequently by those who are intent on making Rupp's lack of effort in recruiting blacks during the latter stage of his career as evidence of his racist attitude. No doubt Rupp felt somewhat uncomfortable recruiting blacks who he had previously only had minimal contact with. But Rupp did make an effort to recruit. These critics, when studying his recruiting efforts of black athletes, fail to comprehend his recruiting practices of most all athletes.

"Let me assure you that even if you were white and 7 feet, 8 inches tall, and you came in to see Mr. Rupp, he would just sit there and look at you. You wouldn't get any feeling that, 'Boy, you're just terribly important to us.' And we were at a time when these young black athletes needed to be told, 'We want you more than anything else. Here's a sense of the kind of life you'll have on campus.' He just didn't have that." - Quote by Robert Johnson in book by Frank Fitzpatrick, And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Simon & Schuster, 1999, pg. 146.

"My view of that is I do not subscribe to the group that thinks that Adolph was a racist. I believe that for two reasons. One, he wanted to win too much. And the other reason is Adolph had reached that point where he didn't recruit much of anyone. He was so used to potential All-America coming to him that he just didn't get off his duff to recruit." - Quote by Robert Johnson in book by Frank Fitzpatrick, And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Simon & Schuster, 1999, pg. 148.


"Practically every day his senior year, Butch Beard said, 'some Kentucky alum' came by his home. 'They wanted Kentucky to be the first to integrate the SEC. They said if Adolph did it, everybody would.'" - by Dave Kindred, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, "Facts Belie Stereotype of Racist Rupp at UK," May 11, 1997.

If you'd even take a moment to set aside your agenda, you'd perhaps realize that "history" is not as you seem to know it. "History" used to automatically categorize blacks in a bad light. Much of that has been corrected over the years. The pendulum swung the other way after the civil rights movement...looking for prominent individuals to classify as racist despite reality.


Check out the opinions of those actually around at that time....the Texas Western players universally report that race was not an issue.

"We didn't see this as a black-white thing -- we just loved to play ball," - Bobby Joe "Slop" Hill, Texas Western Guard, Bergen Record, March 3, 1996.

"For us, I honestly don't think it was a black-white thing. It was Texas Western going up against Kentucky, who's been there before." - Nevil "The Shadow" Shed, by Jack Wilkinson, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, April 1, 1991.

"It just happened that we had five black starters, and Kentucky had five white starters. We were never coached like that. We weren't into black-white. There weren't any racial slurs. We never heard Pat Riley, Louie Dampier, those great Kentucky players, say a word." - David Lattin, by Dave Kindred The Sporting News, "Haskins truly put his heart into game. Winner of 719 games, national title had his share of suffering," August 31, 1999.

"To us it was a pride game," said Texas Western's Harry Flournoy. "It was just simply an opportunity to show the nation what we had. We didn't say, 'We're going to go out there and whip those white players' butts.'" - by Pat Forde, USA Today, "Legacy of Rupp Slow to Recede Repercussions of 1966 Title Game Still Echo in Many Ears," April 2, 1996.

"That part [black-white] never crossed our minds," say former Texas Western guard Orsten Artis. - by Curry Kirkpatrick, Sports Illustrated, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down," April 1, 1991.


Several of those black players who went to other schools have been quoted as saying they didn't want to be the first one....not that UK/Rupp didn't want them. At some point black people will have to accept that fact that white people are not going to accept your positions on race just because you feel someone is racist or an action is racist.

The pattern of black players is essentially the same for nearly all major universities. To single out Rupp and UK is disinginueous and clearly reeks of jealousy more than racism.

So what if it took thirty years to before UK had a black coach. The fact that 20% of UK's coaches since 1930 have been black is far above most, if not all, of the nation
s major colleges. I don't see a black coach at Duke or UNC or Indiana. Does that make Smith, Knight, or Krzyzewski
racists.

Camron, Camron, Camron.

Believe what you want to believe. None of what you have stated in your post is going to change my mind and certainly not going to change the minds of others. Let us move on.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 8th, 2006 at 06:27 PM]

It's clear that your mind is closed and unwilling to consider what the man actually did instead of the rumors an emotions you hold onto. History is full of people who were portrayed with lies and deception to further an agenda. Do you not think it is a valuable recruiting tool for opposing recruiters to use...especially against the most dominant program across the decades?

The points you make...along the lines of so-and-so said this, who heard if from someone who heard it from someone...are, while sensationial and worthy of the National Enquirer, are at best gossip. Rupp is a popular target because he was famous and happened to be on the wrong side of a historic event. The point of him being a racist didn't even arise until 20 years after his death...when it became fasionable to peg people as racists and writers decided to rewrite the Texas Western game as a racial event when none of the participants even agree that was the case.

It would be a lot more fair to pick someone who can defend himself than to accuse someone who can't answer the accusations.

Camron, I like the fact that you are passionate about this issue, but I do not have to accept your way of thinking just because you post this on a discussion board does not change the feeling that I have on this issue. I am sorry that that upsets you, but I have observed, read, and listen to those that lived at that time and simply used that information and came to my own conclusion.

We could debate this to the end of time. I do not have to accept your point of view (and I will not accept your point of view) on this issue just because you say it is so.

I think anyone here or any place can say whatever they want to about someone that was in a public position. Rupp has his name on a building that is at a public university and anyone has the right to debate the legacy of that individual. It is very fair for anyone to make comments about this man because a lot of the things he did or said were clearly in the light in very public. It is not like Rupp was saying things and behaving in ways behind closed doors. Kentucky had such a legacy of racism and sexism that they currently have in place by law that the officials that work the state finals have to fit a certain racial and gender breakdown each year because of that history(according to a Larry Boucher, Kentucky High School Athletic Association official while speaking at the IHSA Official's Convention in 2004). We can debate all day what Rupp did or did not do, it is not going to matter one bit. It is an interesting debate, but not a significant one.

Peace

That says it all. You don't care what he actually did...only what others have told you to conclude about him. Pretty sad.

What is pretty sad is the fact that you have the nerve to say someone is close-minded. IMO, you have no right to say what you are saying.

I guess I shouldn't read this thread anymore.

Why is my opinion on this so important to you? I am just one person that you do not know at all. If you feel Rupp was the greatest man that ever lived, why does it matter to you if I think he was not?

Peace

Why should one person have a right to <b>their</b> own opinion, and another person doesn't have exactly the same right to their opinion also, Tom? Talk about being sad..and close minded......

Pot....kettle....black...

JR, do you really want me to answer that question? Although you are old enough to know, maybe you don't understand either. Maybe you should think about why I'm saying that.

Wait a minute Tommy, you cannot say that here. As people of color we must accept the majority opinion on race and anything else having to do with our heritage or opinions on these issues. I guess reading Dr. Cornel West and Dr. Alvin Poussaint (or any other Black writer or philosopher that is educated and has been teaching and speaking on this issues for several years) is something we should not do. We should listen to Dr. Camron Rust about anything dealing with these issues and sit in our place.

Happy now!! :(

Peace

Maybe you should tell everybody exactly whereinthehell you're coming from, Tom, without going through all this mumbo-jumbo.

I try keep the hell away from the threads like this because every damn one of them ends up like this. Now, whether I agree with somebody or not, I still think each individual still has the right to have their own opinion. It doesn't matter whether I have any respect at all for a certain opinion, I still respect the right of that individual to have that opinion. Now, obviously, you don't agree with that. So, you tell me, Tom, exactly why do you think Jeff Rutledge is entitled to have his opinion, but Camron Rust isn't also entitled to have his own opinion. Please clear that up for me.

Tom & Jeff, We all know this is a no-win situation. Why even waste your time posting on this thread. No good can come from it. Camron has a right to his opinion, while it is tainted, we can't help him!

I don't know about Camron enough to know whether he is black, white or purple. However, if he is black, his comments show he is very gullable. If he isn't, this is a subject he should stay away from. I would like for you to walk in my shoes for one day in 2006, when things are allegedly better (Ha, Ha, Ha). When it comes to topics like this your opinion is one of ignorance. Here is the definition:

1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

You don't, nor never will, have the knowledge on this subject so you fit the definition. Speaking from knowledge gained by googling is vastly different from living in my skin. A smart person would realize this and back the (*expletive*) up! It still remains to be seen what you will do.
When dealing with people I know, I do not pass judgement on subjects I don't know about, I ask questions so I can learn. If I did read something in a book and was told it was wrong, i would at least consider the words of someone who has lived through a given subject.

Gentlemen, can we keep discussions about basketball officiating?

You are right that Camron has a right to his opinion. I also have a right to my opinion and you have a right to your opinion.

What I do not understand is why this is such an issue in the first place. I do not live in Kentucky or care what they do there.

Peace

That's sad, Tom. And it's sad because you don't have any idea at all why it's sad.

I honestly didn't expect that from you.

I guess I was wrong.

I will endeavour to do the same to you in the future as I do with Jeff Rutledge. I will keep all of my <b>ignorant</b> opinions to myself and will not debate any of them with you. Hopefully that will make you feel better.

Sad, sad, sad....

I actually don't think he was the greatest ever and actually believe he was a long way from being the civil rights pioneer that he was in a position to have been. He could have done so much more but chose to let the status quo be. If that makes a person a racist, I suppose he could have been. In that case, 99% of all white Americans were racists.

Tell me why its sad. I'm not trying to be funny, I really want to know. This is a basketball officials discussion board. When we discuss basketball in that light, we don't have an issue. However, you cannot begin to understand how topics like this feel, unless of course you are a minority. Honestly, tell me if my natural, lifelong feelings cause you to lose some respect for me even though you don't and can't understand how I feel. We can agree, be friends, talk and go about whatever everyday, but that does not take away this part of life for me. I hope you are not saying or somehow suggesting that I should just get in step with what the mainstream thinks I should say, do, think or act. That would be the saddest of all.

I really want to know how you feel about this.

I read the post again and it is almost like you are saying I'm supposed to be somehow different than Rut or better. Tell me why what I said is sad so I will know.

Don't you think it is sad that would stop the flow of basketball related information because of social and cultural differences. I'm an official with my own experiences, skills and opinions; so is Rut. Letting our cultural differences keep you from freely communicating on this board is wrong, especially when you consider the fact that people are prejudice and do business with each other everyday.

Cameron,

Thank you for the history lesson. Remind me to get mad at all my professors and other educators that told me things completely different than what you have. I will remember to share with them how wrong they were about the Civil Rights Movement and any other event that dealt with racial issues in this country. Thank you once again for showing me the light. Where would I be in this world without your vast knowledge of race and America?

Peace