On the my last of my 3 Xmas Tourneys, we had a pregame dunk. I notified the "R" and he asked me if I actually saw the boy dunk the ball. I told him yes, I saw it and I may have ignored it if he would not have grabbed the rim. So of these kids go above the rim and throw the ball through which techically is dunking. I am glad I reported it to the "R" because there was an evaluator in the stands who had the next game. I say this to say, always be on your p's and q's becuase you never know who is watching. Comments???

I don't believe throwing the ball down into the cylinder without touching rim a violation. However if they grasp/touch rim either on a dunk or just out of stupidity it will cost them. Friday night, tourney finals in warm up's a player grasped the rim and another player yanked the net. The result was a T, the coach loosing his box, 5 points for the other team, 2 from the T shots and they opened with a 3 after the throw in to start the game. When the coach was notified of the situation just before the tip his reaction was "Oh that's the way it is going to be, why don't you let the kids play, followed with my player denies that he touched the rim." More coaches are not teaching fundementals to their players and we as refs are not enforcing the required rules. It is not the easiest way to start a game by telling the coach this penalty and it will often make for a tough start. But as you know you never know who is watching. Always go get the easy stuff.

I'll repeat to both of you what has been said in another recent thread. The definition of dunking has nothing at all to do with touching the ring.

RULE 4, SECTION 16 DUNKING
Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force a ball through the basket with the hand(s).

I advise using the definition to determine if it is a dunk or not rather than some made up criterion.


Well at least you punished the team somehow, but I have to say that you missed a T here. There should have been a T on the player who yanked the net too.

10-3-4 . . . Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.
EXCEPTION: A player may grasp the basket to prevent injury.
PENALTY: (Art. 4) For dunking or grasping during pregame or intermission, the foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach.

RULE1, SECTION 10 BASKET SIZE, MATERIAL
ART. 1 . . . Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in length, suspended from beneath the ring.


You're right. Some coaches don't want to discipline their players and then whine and moan when the officials come along and take care of business. After his poor reaction, I definitely would have charged BOTH Ts to his players and two indirects to him.


Good work to both of you guys for actually doing something about this. It is true that you never know who is watching.

Well, I knew he dunked and there was no question that it was a T. He know it also and came over to me and apologized. I told him, he needed to apologize to his coach. Of course the coach went crazy asking questions and he said this was a "great" way to start a game. He also asked it he could get a warning and I told him I am warning him now to let his players know "if" they dunk again, he will be in the parking lot!

IREFU2,
I like the effort that you are making to enforce the rules and do a quality job out there.
I'm dinging you a little bit on your precision with the rules in the hope that you will be even sharper. If you are going to deal with this stuff, then you might as well get it exactly right, huh?


It was this statement that made me include you in my above post even though you know the real definition. You even wrote such in your original post. I'm advising you not to ignore based upon ring contact. As JR says, you have no rules basis for this and doing it this way could really come back to bite you sometime.



Actually, his players would have to dunk TWICE more before he would be in the parking lot. He gets DQ'd on the third indirect T, not the second.

Do you always call a game by <b>what you believe</b> as opposed to what the rules <b>actually</b> say?

Just wondering.

Thanks, I just hate when this happens, it starts the game of on a bad note. Coaches need to make sure they are teaching their kids the correct rules...etc....

Pre game dunk
 

Anecdotal: I was doing a boys high school varsity scrimmage in December when player A on the home team had a break away in which I was the lead. He went to the hoop and used a layup to put the ball in. As we ran back down the court, I asked him why he didn't dunk the ball, I told him if he had, he would have brought the house down. He said he should have. After the game, I told him he didn't dunk it because he couldn't dunk (He is about 6'3" tall). He assured me that he could. We both laughed.
Two days later, I had this same team in a regular schedule game. In the pregame warmups, player A (the 6' 3" from the same team) dunked the ball. I assessed the technical foul.

In a recent jr high game a kid tried to dunk at half time. It was a blow out game, both coaches were very laid back, and no one from the stands reacted when he did it. I was sitting on bottom row of bleachers across court from the table and called him over and asked him to sit down next to me. I then told him that what he just did was a tecnical foul and from the reaction on his face could tell he had never heard it before (or he should get an Emmy). I explained the rule and he promised not to do it again. As the game was about to be restarted his coach subtly thank me and I noticed his big starter sitting on the bench for the first few minutes of second half.

I know some will say I should have stuck him so he would not forget. Some will say let it go because it had no impact. I chose to let it go with a warning and in same situation would handle it same way again.

Yup, that's exactly what I would say. I would say that you were completely wrong to do that. I would say you're deliberately ignoring a very-plainly written rule. I would say that you <b>unfairly</b> cost the other team 2 free-throws and a possession by trying to be Mr. Nice Guy. I would also say that you just gave about 20-something other players in that game free license to dunk at half-time too-- after all, if you allow it for one player, then you haveta allow it for <b>all</b> players. That's called being consistent and fair.

I surely would like to be in the stands when 20 different kids line up in a dunkathon at half-time while you're sitting there. You'd deserve every single dunk of it too.

Btw, if I was evaluating you that day, you'd be getting a lot of experience in JV games. I'd be afraid to recommend that you do any higher levels than that.

Jeez...did you miss the fact that it was a JH game and not the state championship? I'd sooner give up officiating than work for a crabby old assignor that has forgotten that the game is about the kids on the floor and the life experiences that being involved brings and not on that precious little rulebook. Happy New Year!

You're missing my point, Dev. When I see someone ignoring a very plainly written rule that every coach, player and fan in the free world damn well <b>knows</b> is a rule, then I see an official who is simply afraid to take care of bidness. They look for excuses to <b>not</b> make a call and then try to justify doing so. To be quite honest, yes, as an assignor I'm afraid to put those guys in a higher level game that means something because I'm not sure what else they'd choose to ignore. If you wanna work with partners like that, hey, be my guest.

It's not a matter of being crabby <i>per se</i>. It's a matter of me having <b>my</b> own opinion. And I think that I'm entitled to <b>my</b> opinion, just as you are to your's.

Happy New Year!

Agreed. We can disagree, no problem there. I just happen to believe that we ignore or choose not to penalize hundreds of rules violations during any given game and do so based on our experience and perception of lots of things including level of play, time on clock, score of game, etc. I can't imagine anybody whacking a JH kid at halftime of a blowout game because he <b>tried<b> to dunk. This, imho, is what we, in education, refer to as a teachable moment and was handled perfectly in this particular setting. Change the parameters, score, level, atmosphere may change the call...to me this is part of our purpose, i.e., to facilitate a fair and enjoyable environment for a game. I can recount more times that I made a call that was technically correct (e.g. T'd up a 7th grade girl for swinging elbows a few years ago and she cried the rest of the game) which I wish I would have handled differently than I can remember calls in which I used my experience to make the appropriate call based on the unique situation.

Do you ever take the spirit of the rules into account?

The other team doesn't DESERVE anything. It's a punitive rule, nothing more, designed to save the equipment. Those arguing that something needs to be called when the ball is thrown down without the player touching the rim sound like the same type of people who would calla 3-second violation on a player with a toe over the lane line.

Would you call an OOB violation on a player with a toe over the boundary line?

Depends if I'm tableside. :D

Other than that smart a$$ response, I'll ignore the rest as it's pretty close to a straw man.

Sure do.....and the spirit of the rules say that you can dunk a ball without the ball touching the rim. Seen it myself.

No, the LETTER of the rules states that. The spirit of the no dunking rule is that we are being asked to protect equipment and eliminate any possible taunting. What is the purpose of whacking a kid who skies above the rim and throws it into the hoop without touching the ring?

It could also be considered a rule designed to prevent taunting and showboating. If they were worried about equipment, they'd make dunking in game illegal.

Something is wrong with your reply but I just can’t put into words to convey a good rebuttal.

No, the LETTER of the rules states that. The spirit of the no dunking rule is that we are being asked to protect equipment and eliminate any possible taunting. What is the purpose of whacking a kid who skies above the rim and throws it into the hoop without touching the ring? [/B][/QUOTE]Lemme ask you this then.....

You're the assignor, or the guy from your association who has to receive all the complaints from the schools in your area. You get a written complaint in from a JV coach, also signed by his AD- copy to the league convenor, that an opposing player dunked the ball during pre-game warm-up or half-time. They said that an official definitely saw the dunk, called the player over and talked to him and also went and talked to his coach...but no technical foul was ever called. They stated in the letter that they had witnesses and a video of it also. They wanna know why that rule wasn't enforced because they had received a "T" for a pre-game dunk earlier in the season.

What's your reply, Rich? Or anyone?

Give me a good one, please. Hopefully I can use it in the future because I've had to answer letters similar to that in the past.

Lemme ask you this then.....

You're the assignor, or the guy from your association who has to receive all the complaints from the schools in your area. You get a written complaint in from a JV coach, also signed by his AD- copy to the league convenor, that an opposing player dunked the ball during pre-game warm-up or half-time. They said that an official definitely saw the dunk, called the player over and talked to him and also went and talked to his coach...but no technical foul was ever called. They stated in the letter that they had witnesses and a video of it also. They wanna know why that rule wasn't enforced because they had received a "T" for a pre-game dunk earlier in the season.

What's your reply, Rich? Or anyone?

Give me a good one, please. Hopefully I can use it in the future because I've had to answer letters similar to that in the past. [/B][/QUOTE]

If the kid grabs the rim, I'll make the call. But a gentle throwdown of the ball isn't a taunt and is no danger to the equipment.

This happened to me last season. I just said, "That was no dunk" and walked away. Coach got me at the table when I was looking at the book and wanted to argue the book meaning of the word dunk. I walked away again. I have no association that assigns games -- I get my own games from schools and leagues and they are free not to use me again. But I did end up whacking the guy during the game and I sent a report to the state and they told me I probably should've whacked the COACH pregame when he decided he didn't like my walking away and he tossed a rulebook in my direction.

I assign a 44-team league (baseball) and get calls from people all the time. I got pictures this past season of a slide rule call the one team didn't agree with. I back my officials as long as they aren't being dishonest. We're paid to make judgment calls all the time.

A JV coach sends a letter about a pregame dunk? Pardon my lack of political correctness, but who freaking cares?

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 1st, 2006 at 09:56 PM]

I'm with Rich on this one. If I see a kid do a "drop dunk" during warm-ups, I'm gonna warn the kid and tell him the next one is a T. If it's a rim rattler, I'm going to start the game with a T.

I had the drop dunk happen last year and the visiting coach asked me if I was going to give a T. I said, "no, the spirit and intent of the rule is to keep from having to cancel games because of bent rims."

The rule isn't because of showboating or they wouldn't allow dunks during games either. The way they protect rims during games is to have a T called if a kid unnecessarily hangs on the rim.

The coach was fine with it, not that I really cared since coaches only care about "the spirt and intent" of rules when it favors them.

Z

Guys, the pregame dunk rule is not designed to protect equipment. Do you really think those guys don't tear the rims down before and after practice, and in the off season? Not to mention the work its given during games, which is often tougher than what would be faced during pre-game (considering the allowed hanging on, if needed). Today's equipment is manufactured to withstand dunks, including pregame dunks.

The no-dunk rule is designed to prevent injury from those who aren't warmed up properly and may get into a frenzied mentality of "top this" when someone else does it. Whether or not this is or has been a huge problem, at the very least the NF thinks it is.

At the very least, its a dual purpose rule, so the no-rim dunk still warrants a T.

Incidentally, in high school, the players KNOW the rule. Make no mistake about that. I can't tell you how many times I've walked out on the court and heard, "no more dunks." Don't think twice about hitting them up, and if the coach complains, grab a mirror and tell him to look in there.

Thanks for reminding me. I worked a Christian College scrimmage earlier this year with a bent rim which occurred during dunking practice the day before.

Around here, calling a drop-dunk as a T is considered looking for trouble. Our "old grouchy assignor" asked us to only call a T for a pregame dunk that grabs the attention of everyone in the gym.

If you want to call a subtle dunk as a T, go ahead. But don't get all high-and-mighty and pretend like you were in on the discussion of why this rule was put into place.

We are all out there to interpret the spirit and intent of the rules. To me, a little drop dunk isn't going to hurt any equipment and it sure isn't taunting. I'd rather just go warn the kid than start the game with a T for such a minor thing. Heck, the case book has a play where a 3-second call is made when a player has one foot in the key. How many of us would call that?

Z



[Edited by zebraman on Jan 1st, 2006 at 11:12 PM]

If the kid grabs the rim, I'll make the call. But a <font color = red>gentle throwdown of the ball</font> isn't a taunt and is no danger to the equipment.

[/B][/QUOTE]What is a <b>"gentle throwdown of the ball"</b>? :confused: Dropping the ball from over top of the ring ain't a dunk and never has been. My comment was that you could push or force the ball <b>down</b>, iow, meet the definition of a dunk, without rattling the ring. If you're <b>throwing the ball down</b>, the Laws of Physics say that you're putting some force behind that throw. That act now meets the rulebook definition of a dunk("driving, forcing, pushing"), doesn't it? How is an official supposed to judge when "not throwing hard enough" becomes "throwing too hard" when a player is <b>throwing</b> the ball down?

And how do I then explain to a coach/AD/convenor that the player they're asking about wasn't throwing the ball down hard enough?

Btw, the play of Cropduster's that I commented on said "tried to <b>dunk</b>". Do you agree with Cropduster on that one too, Rich? Ignore it? If so, same question- what can someone reply to a written complaint about it?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 1st, 2006 at 11:20 PM]

What is a "drop dunk"? :confused:

If you just drop the ball, it's legal. If you push or force the ball down, no matter how hard, that meets the definition of a dunk and that is illegal. It's gotta be one or t'other.

JR,
The only explanation which I could give you is, "As officials we try to be universal, but we are all individuals."

A drop dunk... not an official term and I wasn't trying to start a new buzz word!. :D

I just meant the kind that are pushed down without a lot of zip and the hands don't hit rim so there is no sound other than the net.

Like I said, I have no problem with others calling this as a T.... but it isn't going to be one when I'm the R.

Z

I'm cool with that. And if I was in an area where I had a supervisor and he told me to call that, I'd do it.

What Nevadaref said is so true. We are all slightly different and we will all see somethig like this slightly differently.

While I generally agree with your position in this debate (that is, I think there's room for interpretation on "driving, forcing or pushing"), I would suggest that you not use the phrase "the next one is a T."

When you use that phrase,m you're saying, "you violated teh rule, but I'm going to give you a pass." If the opposing coach hears this, s/he'll wonder why you're not enforcing the rule.

A better phrase, imo, is something like, "Don't make me decide whether that was a dunk" or, "Let's be sure we're not dunking." This is preventive officiating -- you're stopping something from happening the *first* time, not stopping it from *repeating*.