(This happened last week. One of our association crews was doing the game.) Visitors are up 70-30 late in the third quarter and pressing like crazy. The home coach tells his player on the throw-in after the last basket to throw it to the visitor pressing under the basket to give them an easy basket. This happened 3 times so quickly that the visitors scored three baskets in about 10 seconds. One of the officials hears the home coach say, "Do it again." The official T's up the home coach and as a result, the visitors stop pressing.

We discussed this at length at our officials round table and decided there were several ways to handle it. One would be to call both coaches together and tell them that there are hard feelings brewing here because of the score and the press. In this particular case it happened so fast and the official heard the coach tell his team to do it so the T was appropriate. Under the general concept of making a "mockery" or "travesty" of the game, the T was given. Now, we also discussed that the official doesn't really have the authority to tell a coach how to coach and we shouldn't tell them not to press but it could fall under the area of preventive officiating. Also, it was mentioned that it should be the responsibility of the home coach in this situation to get in the face of the other coach and tell him to knock off the press. In any case, it puts the official in a tough spot because it's not our fault that this is happening.

Any thoughts or experiences like this?

sorry wrong penalty
 

First charging a technical foul to either coach in your scenario is totally inappropriate and unjustified by the rules. That is not the correct penalty.

What the referee can do is forfeit the game.
From 5-4-1
"The referee may also forfeit a game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game."

The officials do not have the authority to instruct a team or coach to stop pressing, to stop scoring, or to assess technical fouls for actions not specified in the rules.

Lastly, I believe that it would be a very poor idea to have one coach "get in the face of the other coach" about pressing with a big lead. That is going to lead to technical fouls and likely bigger problems.

If the home team coach instructs his team not to compete, then declare the game over and go home.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 27th, 2005 at 01:24 AM]

Tough situation, born out of frustration. I don't think I would have T'd the already frustrated home coach... T's are a tool we have to control a situation and I don't think a T on the home team helps to control anything right then. Why pour it on even more?

I think I would have just pulled both coaches together for a coach conference and see if reason can prevail.

Z

Re: sorry wrong penalty
 

So your first move is to forfeit the game? That's your only option? I hope you are willing to explain that to everyone in the gym when you send them home. I think a quick, "knock it off" to either or both coaches would be better for players and everyone else. From the other response it appears that there is no clear-cut way to handle this situation. I plan on using that old concept of common sense when addressing it. The cut and dried "word for word" from the book doesn't necessarily have the best interests of kids at heart. If anyone wants to attack me for letting the kids play more after we've corrected the problem, let them go ahead. I believe I have the authority to do what's best for the kids and the game. Never going ot apologize for that.

Re: Re: sorry wrong penalty
 

I'm not sure I follow this.

You want Nevada to explain to the fans for doing what he thinks is right...yet you'll never apologize for doing what you feel is right?

Re: Re: sorry wrong penalty
 

Forksref...not to speak for Nevada...but, I think he was just showing you what you COULD do by rule.

He was just showing you the T for travesty was not by rule...sure, you could say it was for unsportsmanlike conduct...but, IMO, I like the way Z would handle it.

I would definitely say this is a situation where an official is in a tough spot... one coach is doing something that is very unsportsmanlike, and the other coach has no power to do anything about it.

If, as officials, you believe your job is to uphold sportsmanship in the game, then, of course you have to do something. I'm guessing the rules don't exactly specify the procedure for this situation - and they probably don't because it can be dealt with in several ways. By rule, you can't really penalize the offending coach (well, you can forfeit the game), but it's something I think warrants a penalty. As some stated you could pull the coaches together and try to see what would happen - and after that, if I were an official, I would contact the league about it.

Re: sorry wrong penalty
 

By rule, a T can be an option. The unsportmanlike rule says something like "acts such as but not limited to..." and then lists several things. As the phrase I provided says, there are other acts that can be unsportsmanlike but have not been specified.

Re: Re: Re: sorry wrong penalty
 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Forksref...not to speak for Nevada...but, I think he was just showing you what you COULD do by rule.

He was just showing you the T for travesty was not by rule...sure, you could say it was for unsportsmanlike conduct...but, IMO, I like the way Z would handle it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Z, I'd handle it like that. Nevada just offered no alternative. There is no easy way and the forfeit is the least beneficial to the kids.

Bad situation all around and probably should be reported to league officials for their consideration.
1) you could forfeit the game under the travesty rule. I would use that as a last resort only.

2) you could "T" the coach for unsportsmanlike behavior Second last resort

3) you could casually mention to the coach that in the interest of sportsmanship/fairplay etc. it would be nice if they removed the press.
First resort

4) You can make a team take off a press in situations like this within the rules. After mentioning to the caoch that they might want to remove the press in the interest of sportsmanship...
Call every foul the pressing team commits.
Usually the coach gets the message.

You may not have the authority to instruct a team or coach to stop pressing, to stop scoring, or to assess technical fouls for actions not specified in the rules.

BUT, you definitely have the ability to make the point to the visiting coach that he will no longer be getting the benefit of the doubt until he calls off the dogs.

Rick - That's the party I belong to, if you are up by that much and your player puts a hand on the other team - I will call the foul.

As a coach there are many things you can have your team work on in one of these game situations. Maybe just run some half court offense with a specific number of passes. Games like these are no fun for either team IMO.

And vice-versa too? Will you call it the same way against the non-pressing team also? Or are you just gonna call it tight against the pressing team?

Just wondering.

Chances are the non-pressing team is not getting close enough to foul.

Honestly - it is called looser against the team trailing in this situation.

But as was said they most likely aren't even capable of committing fouls a game where they trail by fourty points.

But in a situation like this is usually only takes a couple of fouls to get the message across.

Personally, I don't send messages. I don't think that it's part of our job out there. I just try to be consistent at both ends of the court from beginning to end. I also just don't think that it's our job to be judge, jury and executioner when it comes to how a coach is telling his team to play.

We disagree completely in philosophy on this one. I just don't believe in ever calling anything looser in regards to one team over their opponent. I might tighten up on the contact if I think it's necessary, but I'm gonna tighten up at both ends- not just at one end.

How does that square with advantage/disadvantage? In such a blowout, what is insignificant to one player/team can be disastrous to the other.

You're giving an unfair advantage to the offensive team by calling fouls on the defenders that you normally wouldn't call, and not calling the same foul on the other team.

If you're calling it the same at the other end, then nobody gains an advantage out there. That's called being <b>fair</b> imo. <b>Fair</b> applies to both teams, not just one.

Jmo, but I think that it's our job to call a game consistently, and not call the game according to our own personal likes or dislikes.

70-30 in the 3rd quarter? So, potentially a whole quarter plus of this nonsense? Nevada's point is well taken. Perhaps a "Do you want to just forfeit, coach?" might be appropriate.

This would get the point across quickly without creating a scene or interrupting the game. Simple, quick, and to the point. Could also add "you are creating a travesty of the game."

You're getting into an area that's none of our business, guys. It ain't up to us to tell 'em how they supposed to play the game.

It sure is our bidness. If we don't put a stop to this, there will be blows on the court.

It's 70-30. I'm looking to get done and get out without having to whack someone or a fight breaking out. If I gotta call a few quick fouls on the pressing team, I'm doing it. If we don't send a message here, nobody else will.

JR -
I see your point and it is well taken with regard to being fair. However in this particular situation as described nothing was fair.
A message needed to be sent through a technical foul - or a few quickly called fouls on the press, before the game busted out into a travesty or a brawl.
We send messages through every call that we make - basically they all say do not do that.
Last night as a favor to a friend I had the priviledge of working a grade school Christmas tourney here in town and something similar to this situation arose in one of the games.
7th grade game early second half and one team is up 25 and still pressing - the team trailing can barely get the ball across mid-court. When the team would steal the ball they we driving to the basket and making passes off the backboard and behind the back to trailers even with no defender around - and doing some celabrating also. They built a 35 point lead it started to get a little physical. (By the way they had committed 1 foul and the other team had committted about 5 fouls) They continued to press at the urging of the fans who were hoot'n and holler'n to beat the band. This was gooing to get really ugly really fast.
So I was the trail, on the next inbound we got three quick fouls on their press before the ball got across mid court - and the coach dropped them off. they still dominated the game and ran up the score, but the game became manageable and the possibility of having other problems stopped too.
IMO I think of that as game managment. Nothing I did with those three foul calls would effect the outcome of the game - but it did accomplish the goal - It got them to stop and prevented further problems.
JMO.

If you are talking about the situation in the original post, it is already too late for that. You've just had one team purposely give the ball to the opponents and allow them to score three times. The game is already a travesty.

While I tend to think that all calls by officials are responses to the actions of the participants, I generally agree with this statement.


So what did you do about this showboating? I'd say that you missed a golden opportunity to "send a message" by calling a technical foul for taunting. A team technical would have been just fine with me.

So instead of punishing the true unsporting behavior, you nit-picked three fouls on kids for playing full-court pressure defense? I have to side with JR here. I don't think that is fair. Did this team really commit three legitimate fouls on one possession after only committing one foul previously in the half? Be careful here, it sounds like you and your partner might be calling stuff that isn't there. If you are truly concerned about the behavior of the winning team, there was a much better way to handle this; call the unsporting T mentioned above.

We have a local team that presses the whole game. The coach will put in the end of his bench quite early, but those kids still have to work hard and press full-court. I know that this coach would be very upset with you and your partner, if you tried to get his third string to move back to halfcourt.



I'm going to put all three of these clips together because they testify to your way of thinking in handling these situations.

1. The "other problems" would have stopped or not arisen had you addressed that behavior with a T or even a harsh word.

2. Game management is not calling fouls on only one team in order to get them to change their defense. It is having the judgment and the courage to take care of problem or potential problem situations as the arise.

I would be more impressed with an official who could deal with a team pressing the whole game with a big lead and manage that without problems. Talk to the players. Calm them down. Watch for things that are unsporting and would anger a kid. Simply stealing the ball or scoring does not qualify.

3. True, but it is not all about the final score. There are other lessons to be learned through athletics. It really does seem like you punished fair and aggressive play by some kids. Why was it your goal to get this team to stop pressing or to get them to not foul while continuing to press full-court? It seems that you were trying for the former. In my opinion, you should have been focused on putting a stop to the teasing and poor behavior. Whether the team steals the ball in the frontcourt or the backcourt, they can still show-off against a lesser opponent.

I'm not trying to harp on you because I know that quite a few officials think in the same manner that you have expressed. I'm just trying to get you to realize that your actions drastically effected the manner in which the game was played. Not the tone or sporting spirit, but the actual defense used. I think that you overstepped your bounds as an official an imposed yourself on the game.
I hope that you might reflect upon this. Whether you decide that anything I wrote here is worthwhile is up to you.

Unlike some people I feel all opinions are worth consideration.

If the coach were playing the end of the bench I would have possibly gone about this is a different manner.
The actions of behavior while close to were not actually unsporting or taunting.
I really did not want to call the "T" - my thought was that it would just rile up the team and the fans to a higher pitch than we already had.

I said my peace to the coach and he chose not to take off the press - There were three fouls there - would I have made the same calls in another game situation probably not.

I will take your ideas into consideration and look at dealling with this in a different manner.
Thanks

That's what this is all about.
 

Rick, This displays a very mature attitude and the perfect one to take on an internet discussion forum. Thumbs up to you. :)


Furthermore, from reading your recent posts you seem to already be quite a competent official. What we are after here is the fine-tuning and further improvement of our officiating skills through a lively exchange of ideas in the hope that each of us will someday be able to attain our officiating goals. Hopefully, all of us can express our thoughts, even those of disagreement, to each other with civility and while keeping our purpose in mind.
It is my sincere hope that I was able to do that in my above post regarding your recent game even though it was certainly critical in nature because of my feelings on particular issues involved. The criticism was meant to be about the officiating itself and not the person doing the work.


It appears from your profile information that although you registered a few years ago, you haven't posted very much until recently. I wish to encourage you to please remain an active poster on this forum. You have added something positive to the discourse. I know that I have learned a great deal and become a much better and more prepared official because of what has been written on here.

Re: That's what this is all about.
 

Hopefully, all of us can express our thoughts, even those of disagreement, to each other with civility and while keeping our purpose in mind.

[/B][/QUOTE]Shut up.

Shut up. [/B][/QUOTE]

Now where's the smiley? :)

Now where's the smiley? :) [/B][/QUOTE]If you really needed a :) to <b>know</b> that I was kidding when I posted that, then you need:
http://www.gifs.net/animate/setupz.gif
:D