Having just finished reffing a JV game, I came out to watch the varsity match. Lo and behold, the home team's center dunks twice in warmups. I looked at the referees in both instances, and they just kept on watching. They did not approach the coach to warn. The visiting coach was busy at the scorers table doing something (he didn't see the dunks). Now, they weren't thunderous dunks, the crowd didn't oooo and aaahhh, but, he didn't just drop the ball in either. Do you all instantly T when you 1. see a dunk in pregame 2. see the same kid dunk twice in pregame 3. never T this, its part of the game. And, if my senior officials are permitting this, how can I start setting precedent for this infraction?

We tell all of our officials in a pre-season meeting how we want them to handle pre-game dunks. We want it called uniformly in all games; that way nobody has any complaints:
- a pre-game dunk is never ignored. It <b>must</b> be called.
- Do not sound your whistle, but <b>immediately</b> go and tell the dunker that he has just earned himself a technical foul.
- Now go the dunker's head coach and immediately inform him/her the number of their player that just received the dunking "T". Also inform the head coach that he/she will also be charged with an indirect "T" and has lost the right to use the coaching box for the entire game.
- Inform the scorer - get the player "T" and indirect "T" to the coach entered in the score book. Also make sure that one foul gets charged towards the first-half bonus and the scorer knows how to set the AP arrow after the free throws for the "T".
- Inform the opposing coach that his team will start the game with 2 free throws and a throw-in at center.

In your situation, there ain't much you can do if the officials on the game choose to ignore it. Just shake your head and forget it. Not a bad idea to make it part of your own pre-game though so your crew gets it right.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 06:39 PM]

Last night I had the night off but got invited to do a 3-man that was only 10 minutes away. So of course I helped them out, anyways while we were dressing we were talking about odd things that had happen. One of the other officials was telling us about an area school whose coach would lead them out of the locker room and dunk the ball to start their warm-ups. Great way to start the game... huh?!?! :)

Actually, I think that is great! According to the rules it is perfectly legal.

Why? The coach is not a team member (see the definition in 4-34-4) and the pregame dunking rule only applies to team members per 10-3-4.

Naw, it ain't the purpose and intent of the rules to let coaches, trainers, etc. line up and dunk the ball in warm-ups. Use R4-34-2 and R10-4-1 and nip it in the bud. Bah, humbug.

I think that is as juvenile as an official palming a basketball. <small>[Yes, I can.]</small> ;)
mick

"If" I see a player dunk in pregame warmups (and I never actually "see" it - unless of course it is so obvious that Stevie Wonder can see it) I do the following:

1) I immediately look away/look to see if the opposing coaching staff noticed it.
2) Pull the kid who dunked aside and have a one-way conversation like this - "don't you EVER do that again! The next time I see that, you get a T, they get 2 FT's and the ball to start the game, and you'll be walking over to your coach to tell him he cannot stand during the entire game and tell him why."
3) Then prior to tip, I let the head coach know what his player did and how I handled it.

Of course that is not what the rule book says, but that is how I prefer to manage that situation. That's what works for me.

If you noticed it someone in the gym noticed it too. When you pull the player aside the coaching staff may notice that and ask why. They most likely will get an answer.

Seems to me if you are not going to enforce the rule then they've done nothing wrong so why say anything?

Are you serious?

Nor does he make a call that "decides the game" or "takes the game away from the players" in the last moments. :rolleyes:

Find the courage to do it right.

In NY, when the officials come out of the locker room, the dunking stops. Before that, open season.

__________________________________________________ ________

I am trying to figure out where this school is. I haven't got a clue which coach around here could dunk.

Bob,

I'm not sure either to be honest, he never did really say. I would guess it's somewhere north of me.

What criteria do you use to determine a dunk? In our pre-games we usually decide that if the rim doesn't shake then it was not a dunk. The player simply laid the ball over the basket and dropped it in. I have also been told by some pretty experienced officials in my area that, using this criteria, if a player lays it over the hoop it is good preventive officiating to let him know that if the rim moves it's a T. I called one one night in a freshman game after the player's second one clearly vibrated the rim and backboard. The coach said he had done it twice previous to that. I explained that on the others the rim did not move so in my opinion it was not a dunk. It worked in this instance and I think it is also a good response since the coach then knows that you were paying attention. I do not agree that looking away and pretending you didn't see it is the correct method.

NFHS defines Dunking without reference to the rim. Section 16 (Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force a ball through the basket with the hand(s).)

The problem is that there's absolutely no rules basis to support that particular hypothesis. What's your answer gonna be if someone asks you for a rules reference to back up your statement?

The rim vibrating might not be a bad rule of thumb to use, but I don't think that it's a good idea to tell a coach anything that can't be backed up by some rules language. Just tell the coach that it either was or wasn't a dunk.

What's the spirit of the rule, though?

Question. If i call this T for dunking in warm ups does that mean their will be no jump ball. If I understand the rule correctly we begin the game with 2 shots and then the ball is given to the shooting team at half court just as with anyother T

Yes, and the coach has to sit the whole game!

And if 3 kids do it, the coach is ejected.

Is that correct? Three incidents and your out? Rule book reference please.

Each T is direct on the player, and an indirect for the coach. Three indirects and the coach is ejected.

The rule book reference is rule 10-3-4PENALTY, Daddy.

Yup, we discussed this as a way you could get your coach disqualified before the game ever starts if you are pissed at him.

Yeah, there is sort of a hoops urban legend (might be true) that three players who didnt like their coach and knew they were going to get DNPs and/or cut dunked three times during warm ups and got their coach ejected. Hard to say if it is true. But that is the story. Some real senior guys might know if this is true or not.

This did happen just 2-3 years ago in the Portland area.

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It isn't south of you, I can guarantee that! And I can't think of anywhere nearby you to the West either. By the way, did you ever pick up any games here?

The rim vibrating might not be a bad rule of thumb to use, but I don't think that it's a good idea to tell a coach anything that can't be backed up by some rules language. Just tell the coach that it either was or wasn't a dunk. [/B][/QUOTE]

JR,

Thanks for the input. I like your simple answer better. I will most likely continue to use the rim as my criteria but I will not share that with a coach anymore.

I observed this at a game recently and it looked like the official was staring at the kid who did it not once but twice. I would have asked about it had I done the JV game and gone in at halftime, but I was just a spectator. The kid was last year's Mr. Basketball in our state.

Details?

I don't recall the details but I think it was a Boys JV or Freshman game at Lake Oswego or Lakeridge (or one of the schools in that area). Three different players either dunked or hung on the rim in pregame and got the coach tossed.

__________________________________________________ ______

Ref Daddy,
The rules reference was posted above, but also check out the technical foul page in the rule book that shows what, how, and to whom. A really helpful page to get to know very well. RR

I think the rim vibrating is a pretty good interpretation of the rule. The rule states "Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force..." So if you place the ball above the hoop and allow gravity to do the work then you are not creating the "force". Now you could force the ball through without causing the ring to move but then it is difficult to tell if the force was caused by you or by simple gravity. If the ring moves then this provides some good evidence of the force since the ball and gravity alone (from a short distance) will not likely cause the ring to move.

Conclusion: (a) Ring does not move = benefit of doubt given to player that they provided no force.

(b) Ring moves = little doubt that player provided force.

Problem = You have absolutely no rules language to back that little fantasy up.

Why do people take a simple rule and make up their <b>own</b> interpretation for it?

The "rim vibrating" is <b>not</b> mentioned anywhere in the rules as being a criteria or a possible criteria of a dunk. It's that simple. Are you telling me that if you simply drop the ball from above and it hits the ring first and then slops in or drops out, you're still gonna call that play a dunk because the ring moved? If a player takes a jump shot and rattles the ring, is that a "T" too?

Call it any way you want. Have fun trying to explain it later though if someone questions you. You won't find any rules language to support your hypothesis.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 31st, 2005 at 08:30 AM]

Wouldn't it be better to just use the wording of the definition instead of designing these other criteria to follow?

It seems that officials have way to many "I use such and such to decide if..." when the clear language of the rules would do just fine.