Ok, so I am quite versed in the rules of basketball and am learning about the ways to apply the rules in the necessary situation. My question is..... if you have a coach that is questioning your rules interps and being a total stickler on the rules, do you start to follow suit on them or just let it go?

You tell the coach that she's getting paid to coach, and you're getting paid to be the rules interpreter. If she tries to argue that you're wrong about something, you say, "Tonight, I'm not coaching, and you're not reffing. If you feel I've made some mistakes, you can contact my assignor after the game." If there's any more complaining, you give the universal stop sign, and the next complaint after that buys the coach a seat belt. It's that simple.

Not that it will win me any fans on this board, but I hate the "I'm paid to ref, you're paid to coach" line. I would rather you skip that step and just go straight to the "stop sign" or even a T-bomb if you feel justified.

I must admit that everytime (maybe 5 times over the last 10 years) a ref has pulled the my job/your job argument on me I always say, "let me know when you're ready to start working." I fully expect to get a T for it, but I can't help myself - that line is the one that just gets under my skin.

In order, my coaching pet peaves(sp) are :
1) missed layups,
2) missed free throws,
3) my job/your job argument,
4) turnover

:)

I realize you guys deal with whining coaches all the time, so my views are certainly not important, I'm just presenting my opinion from the other side.

I totally agree with this point, I ref, you coach is a terrible line in my book as it is way too confrontational.

Back to the original post, I don't understand what kind of coach would be a "rules stickler" if you're administering the game properly. We are not paid to decide which rules to enforce or which rules to not enforce, so my answer is that if it's a rules concern, you better be doing it the right way, which is by the book. There's no excuse to ignore rules, you need to do your job and administer the game.

Now if the coach is complaining about judgement calls/no calls, then there are several things you can say to the coach, such as, "That contact was incidental," "It didn't affect the shot," or even, "I'll watch for it." You shouldn't have sticklers about rules because you should always be on top of the rules, but if he's disputing judgement, you can address it a number of ways.

BTW: I don't know what level game the original post refers to, but if we're talking 3rd grade basketball and a coach who wants every travel, 3 seconds in the book, those calls fall under the category of judgement and there are plenty of ways to deal with this type of coach.

One of these days, ***** and some coach is trying to ref, I'm going to turn to his bench and tell the 5 crappiest players I can identify to go check in to the game. Then, when the coach asks me what the hell, I'm doing, I'll tell him that in return for helping me ref, I'm helping him coach. :D

[Edited by mick on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 08:14 AM]

An exchange of words with an official bothers you more than a turnover? It seems that you would be more concerned with the issue over which you have some control.
jmo

All that whining gets under our skin too. Or at the very least we know not to listen to you about much of anything the rest of the night. Or not to listen to you the next time we see you during another game.

Peace

I coached one game (USA team vs a canada team during an exercise in Canada) and one game was enough. I don't think I would say a coach has control over turnovers. I felt like coaching was a very helpless job; I couldn't go out on the court and do what I was asking to do (I could, just not during that game).

But I think JAR does have a good point. It is kind of interesting that you this comment would be your pet peeve above something that happens multiple times every game.

I will offer this: a very esteemed official presented the case that the stop sign should be replaced by a more two-handed defensive posture. This is meant to seem more on the defense and not look aggressive like the stop sign. He got this method directly from his other job as an evaluator at Wizards games. I know we don't do NBA games, but I think it warrants some thought. I'm not a big into using the stop sign anyway.

The smiley under the coach's list indicates that the list is (at least a little) tongue-in-cheek.

And, FWIW, I agree with him. I don't like the "my job/your job" argument, and I don't use it. ymmv, of course.

In order to answer this, I think we need to know the level of ball, and some of the specifics.

What level of ball are we talking about here?
Is coach a rules stickler on both ends of the court?
What rules is coach squacking about?

Don't let it go on for to long without addressing the coach. Usually I start with a civil discussion something like: "coach what are you seeing?" or "coach, I'll watch for it." If coach continues, I'll watch real hard when his team has the ball as maybe they will commit this violation so I can call it for coach. Some might say I'm baiting the coach, but most times they will get the message. I also am not a fan or reminding anyone who's the coach/ref.

Yes guys, I was making a joke.

Trust me, I've got your back 99.9999% of the time. I keep my whinning to an extreme minimum because I know it doesn't help me with the refs and it doesn't help my players play the game.

Had a coach friend once tell me coaching involved trying to "control the uncontrolable."

I was a coach for 13 years
 

prior to become a ref. Most coaches get into a ref's ear when 1) they are losing 2) they are mad at their kids play and want to take it out on someone 3) the game seems to be being called one-sided 4) they are losing. The only time I really had an issue with the refs was with games "seemingly" called one-sided. If you are applying the rules equitably between the two teams, understand that the coach's intent may not be personal, or, about your calls at all. I have found "I'll watch for it coach" has worked very well (but, then you do have to watch for it....). Being a new ref, i don't know if the dinosaur ref agree with this position. But, I don't pay much attention to the stickler comments because coaches usually only whine when they are being outcoached or are losing. One time, during a summer tournament, a coach told me i reffed a terrible game (his team played D with their hands, not their feet, and we called a number of reaching calls). I was trying to walk away but he persisted. I stopped turned around to confront him (his eyes got real big, he knew he was over the line and think he thought I was going to pop him!). I said, "Coach, it appears you've never taught your kids how to play D correctly," and I shut up and looked at him right in his eyes. After about 5 seconds, he turned, walked away, and never said another word to me all weekend (I reffed them two more times). Maybe it was out of line, but it sure felt good!

Re: I was a coach for 13 years
 

1) I don't know if I'm the old dinosaur you're talking about, but saying something like that is fine with me. It just recognizes that you've heard the coach's' complaint and whine-time is over. Personally, I've always used something like "I'll call it if it's there, Coach".

2) This dinosaur doesn't like that one and recommends you forget about it completely. Do <b>not</b> ever tell coaches how to do their job and do <b>not</b> ever critique coaches and do <b>not</b> ever put a coach down. If you do, how can you "T" them up later if they do exactly the same thing to you? A "stop sign" or "that's enough" is a good enough warning. That puts the onus on the coach to either back off or risk getting nailed.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 11:43 AM]

The one and only time I used the your job/my job line I got back your response...only louder and less polite.

I never said it again.

I agree with you JR
 

That I should not have said what i did (I hope my prior post did not espouse saying such a response). It was the only time in my short reffing career (I am sure more will come) that I had had enough from a coach. It was after the game, I couldnt T him up, and, we were just getting going on a weekend long tournament. Having coached much more than I have reffed, it is interesting being in a reversed role. I no longer offer such overt comments, and, will drop a T when needed in the future. I was just frustrated that this particular coach wouldn't let it go! Anyway, I love your posts JR, i think you lend great value and incite to this site. And, the dinosaur references are to those who were reffing games when I was in high school (76-80) and are still at it today. No disrespect intended, grandpa.

Wow!! I don't know when I've been more wrong (welll, not on this board, anyway). I've used this line quite a few times and it's always been very effective for me. But considering the volume and intensity of the disagreement, I'll never recommend it to anyone else again.

Here's another one that has worked, although I never recommend it. Coach is up by 40 or 50 and still pressing. I said, quietly, "Coach, some people might think that keeping the press on in this situation is over-compensation." I've continued to ref his games over three or four years, and he's never said one more word to me. Not in games or in pre-game conferences or anything. Still, I don't recommend it.

I wasn't really making a specific example in my original post, more of a general one... and I think that the answers have all been good. In my experience, coaches that REALLY know the rules aren't the type of coaches that yap their head off the whole game and when they actually speak up, its a good idea to listen to them.

With coaches, I've found that what works best for me is a lot of "OKs" and "Yes sirs/maams" to general comments and questions. As a trial lawyer with a solid background in argumentation and debate, I can say with certainty there are few coaches that are going to win any argument with me. But that doesn't mean I want to engage them. In fact, I do my best to keep from arguing, saying specifically many times, "coach, I'm not going to argue with you."

The hardest situations to deal with are the situations where I'm trying to be cooperative and explain what I had and the coach doesn't really want to hear it. At that point, you have to tactfully say something like, "OK, coach, that's what we had; let's play ball."

On rare occassions, I will get on a coach for doing something he really shouldn't be. In ATX's example of "when are you going to start," I'd respond something like, "now, coach, you know that comment wasn't helpful and was really uncalled for." I may or may not give a T; depends on where I think the game is, under control wise.

Guys, you have to understand: when people get into their thinking/acting from pure emotion mode, they want a confrontation. If you give it to them, then you are satisfying them and throwing gas on a fire. My advice is to talk as little as you can get away with while still being respectful and not ignoring them. If a coach goes comletely insane, then, in addition to enforcing whatever rule infractions they have committed, its time at that point to ignoring them.

In a recent game
 

we had a light scrum inside the lane that ended in a jump ball. One of the boys on the tie up ripped his head out of the pile of kids, holding his nose as if he'd been hit. He limped (even though it was his nose that was hit) over to his bench. The coach had his hands up in the air, wondering where his foul call was. The coach calls a subsequent time out, motions me over to the team huddle and asks, "Well, you see this?" and points at his player with a wad of UNBLOODY gauze sticking out of his nose. "He then offers, "How do you think that happened, eh?" I said, "looks like he got hit in the nose, coach." I waited a moment, no reply, then walked away. I didn't argue, just stated the obvious. I think he was waiting for me to defend the call. I did, by not directly replying. It seemed to work well.

Re: I was a coach for 13 years
 

Well put. The words "seemingly" and "seems to be" are very important here. Occasionally this is just the way it is. I have had a game or, more often, a portion of a game once in a while where I looked back on it and said, "The calling in this game seemed one-sided to me, and I was one of the ones doing it, so I can imagine how it looked to everyone else."

Juules, I don't know that your thought process is completely out of line. I've said, "Coach, you're not going to officiate tonight and I'm not going to coach. So let's draw that line now so we don't have any misunderstandings." I don't see anything wrong with that.

Aw, ain't that sweet! :D I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside...or I have gas!

The bottom line is confrontational statements aren't a good thing. We would all like to have "come-backs" and witty comments but - like a coach arguing after a call - what good are they going to do? I think it is highly unlikely for someone to make a smart comment to a coach and the situation takes a turn for the positive. It could happen, but I haven't seen it. WE are always learning, this is just another learning experience.

I had two interesting conversations during a game on Monday evening.

First, there was an offensive rebound, put back and foul. I report and see that the home coach has come to the edge of the box, a sure sign he wants to talk.

"Tony, how is that not over the back?"

"Coach, he's 6'9". I can't call a foul on him just because he's taller than your guys. If he pushes on a rebound, I'll get it."

"What if one of my players puts a butt into him?"

"As long as they don't ride him out of bounds like 52 did while ago, I've got no problem with it."

Second play, the 6'9" kid dunks, pulls up and hangs on the rim. Two whistles but I beat the C to the it. Whack! Visiting coach has gotten up, so I stay tableside and back down to him as he comes to the edge of the box.

"Tony, didn't his momentum cause him to do that?"

"Coach, he caught the ball in the paint and went straight up. He didn't have any momentum."

"But if he had let go, he would have fell."

"I can't help that coach. He put himself in that position. All he had to do was dunk and come down. He chose to do the chin up."

A little later, I completely miss one, made the call but didn't see the whoel play.

Same coach, "Man, I wish I had had you guys last Friday," in reference to a game he lost."

"Okay, I missed that one. I admit it."

He couldn't help but smile and that was it.

I don't mind talking with or listening to a coach who's willing to talk to me in the same manner he wants me to talk to him. That's cool. In fact, I kinda enjoy that type of interaction. Don't show me up and I won't show you up.

I'm trying to get better at that. The other thing that I've found is that if I get right up alongside a coach and talk quietly, it's easier for them to take something from me, and they feel less like they need to save face. Maybe the times I've gotten away with the "I'll ref, you coach" thing, it's because I did it very quietly like that. Something I'll have to think about.

But not tonight. I'm enjoying this eggnog (I drink mine with brandy).

Last night in boys V game I had a timeout request. It was a full, I started the TO and the scorekeeper told me that the team had no more TO's left. After the TO I went to the coach and told him he had none left. His response (after a full TO) was, "How can you let that guy run through our guy? This is not football?" I can't believe the guy was focusing on a play a while back and had to let me have it after he had talked to his team for a minute and I had informed him about the TO situation. My response was silence. You can't get into trouble and you can't be misquoted with silence. I've learned to say less and although at first it was tough to do, I have had fewer confrontations and my attitude has improved.

I think there is a time and place for a "cut to the chase" comment like "you coach, we ref." I think I've said that one time this year and I didn't regret it.

If a coach is respectful to me, he'll get courteous service.

If a coach is constantly whining about "missed calls" for the first two minutes of the game (traveling, 3-in-the-key, the typical ignorance), the "you coach, we ref" comment might be what he needs. More likely I'll say, "is there a question in there coach?," but sometimes the "parental voice" is necessary.:D

Z

Juulie - surely you know the Davism for this. It's, "Coach - let's trade places. You come out here on the floor and ref, and I'll sit on the bench and act like a jackass."

And no - I did not call you Shirley.

Agreed Z. I get to that point when he's crying about every play that he perceives to be an infraction. When he has that type of attitude, I'm not real interested in being nice.

The thing about the coach/ref line is that it is essentially baiting a technical. It could be seen as a zinger in which any response gets the T. On the "travel" every time up the court, the best response I have used it basically, "Not on every call" or something to that effect. If the coach is interested in reasonable dialogue, I might ask him what he's seeing that I'm not so I have something specific to look for and he knows that I'm hearing him. Of course most guys who whine about every call/no call are not interested in reasonable dialogue. Personally I wouldn't use the coach/ref line because if I do have a T, my assignor could say that I baited that T, or could've handled it differently. Just doesn't look good IMHO.

IMO, it is ok to use a one liner that is witty.

Wit can defuse the tension between a coach and the officials.

If you have the personality and you are not being disrespectful, by all means if necessary use a witty comment to answer a head coach.

E.g., a head coach was belligerent over a foul call on his player. She is tall and carries a large frame.

While the official was reporting the player control foul, the head coach commented, "That was not a foul, she is a big girl who used a big girl move!" The official replied back, “No coach that was a big girl foul!"

Not only did the table chuckle, so did the players on the bench.

I was told, the head coach never again during the rest of the game question any calls or spoke of any smart remarks to the officials.

Maybe there are better ways to tell a coach to STFU but what ever way works for you may not work for others or may not be in ones own persona.

"I ref, you coach", is an acceptable partial quote from the CBOA (California Basketball Officials Association) handbook, S.A.V.R.S. (Short Answer Verbal Responses)...

WHEN A COACH IS WORKING THE OFFICIALS TOO HARD
Savr: "Coach, you need to coach your players and not the officials!"

WHEN A COACH'S ANGER IS BEGINNING TO ESCALATE
Savr: "Coach, I’ve heard enough!" (Accompanied by the stop sign)

WHEN THE FOULS ARE LOPSIDED IN ONE TEAMS FAVOR
Savr: "We're not counting fouls coach, we're just calling them."

We can agree to disagree. When I tell a coach, "You're not going to officiate and I'm not going to coach," the message is, "I've heard enough." It's not baiting him into anything IMHO. What I've said is nowhere near as abusive as what the coach has been barking. There comes a time when enough is enough.

When you say this, how do you expect the coach to respond? Do you expect and allow the coach to say something back, get the last word as it were? Or would you whack him if he said something back?

I understand that the line is accepted and it is widely used, sometimes with more success than I've seen or imagined. As BktBallRef said, he has used it tactfully and successfully, but to me, personally, I don't find it very effective. I find the line too confrontational for most situations.

The more I officiate, the more I find that the best way to communicate with coaches is to work with them and do so on a human level. I've seen the CBOA guide as I am a member of the CBOA, and the SAVRs are simply guidelines to consider, rather than hard and fast rules. They are very helpful in teaching officials the basics of communication and helping us keep control of games, but often they are so confrontational that they lead to a number of technical fouls that may have otherwise been prevented. The problem with these guidelines is that they attempt to apply a one size fits all solution to coach-ref interaction, and some of them just further intensify any frustration/anger that may exist.

One thing that I have learned and continue to learn is that coaches are not the enemy, most of the time they just want an explanation or to have an opinion heard, it's not personal and as soon as I realized that the number of technicals I've called has fallen dramatically. Using this handbook at the wrong time can destroy any rapport as the coach will simply get more frustrated with your response. The coaches have much more at stake in the game than we do, so we should take that into account when dealing with them.

There is no such thing as an automatic response to a coach. BktBallRef's style probably differs from mine, some officials like to use humor and one liners because it fits their personality, I don't because it doesn't fit my personality. I stand by my original statement that if I said the "I coach, you ref" line, and then had to call a technical immediately on the coach, I would have a hard time defending that T to my assignor because in my personality it sounds like I baited it. IMO, the worst thing I can do is back the coach into a corner because then it starts to become personal, but my way clearly isn't the only way. Whatever works for your personality is best.

I don't have an expected response. I don't have a pre-determined agenda in mind if I use the phrase. I don't view it as a smartass remark. I can simply tell you that I've never had an issue when I've said it. Why? Perhaps because I'm being completely truthful. "Coach, I'm not going to coach tonight and you aren't going to officiate." The message is clear. I'm going to do my job and you're going to do yours without any interference from the other.

Whatever an official says to a coach, it has to be within their personality or the comments are not going to come off the right way. I know I can be a smart *** sometimes, but it works for me because of the facial expressions and the tone that goes along with it. I know some guys that can make jokes constantly and it works for them because that is how they are off the court. You also have to know your audience. I know if I say certain things in one area that might I better use another choice of words in another area (Chicago Public League/Catholic League vs. many suburban areas). One size does not fit all and you have to learn when to use certain lines and when not to use them.

Peace

Come on now, do you really believe that I posted those comments as being a requirement, an automatic response for all basketball officials to communicate back to a head coach?

Those were posted as a suggestion and yes, the coach will or attempts to back you into a corner, each and every game you officiate. It is their god given belief to do so.

I do not think a good official feels that a head coach should not have a warm-hearted short conversation with an official.

The problem is a head coach needs to understand when it is appropriate to converse to an official. It sure isn’t warm-hearted to do so during a live ball unless it is for a correctable error, a time-out or the coach screams... "Hey ref, I give up. My team quits!"

You might feel more comfortable by ignoring and holding long personal conversations with an irate or pesky like head coach.

Maybe you’re more like the football ref in those Budweiser commercials, where the football coach who keeps yelling into the football ref's ears but the ref holds a very calm, straight face look and never makes a comment.

You do not have to be funny when using humor to get your message across that you had enough of an irritating coach.

When a coach keeps yelling give me some of those calls too, why not reply with "coach, I ran out of minutes on my AT&T calling card."

It may or may not cease the tension but at least you tried yet if he had asked a question, you could respond on a dead ball... "Coach, we are calling it on both ends... "Can you hear me now?"

:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnny1784
The problem is a head coach needs to understand when it is appropriate to converse to an official. It sure isn’t warm-hearted to do so during a live ball unless it is for a correctable error, a time-out or the coach screams... "Hey ref, I give up. My team quits!"

You might feel more comfortable by ignoring and holding long personal conversations with an irate or pesky like head coach.

Maybe you’re more like the football ref in those Budweiser commercials, where the football coach who keeps yelling into the football ref's ears but the ref holds a very calm, straight face look and never makes a comment.
[/B][/QUOTE

I totally agree with you, and I'm not knocking you for bringing up the guidelines because they are useful guidelines. The more I officiate though, the more I realize the importance of being approachable to a coach, or to simply give coaches your ear in good faith.

Now I don't feel that ignoring a coach is a good policy because he will just get more irritated in most cases. A coach should be addressed in some way, be it approachable body language, a nod of the head, or a verbal acknowledgement. Long conversations are also a no-no because they look bad from the other coach's perspective and there's too much being said on the official's part that could be misquoted or misinterpreted. In other words, the more you talk, the more likely you put yourself in a box.

In terms of the "irate" coach, that coach is beyond conversation, and depending on the situation, I will remind him of his box or take care of business if needed. My goal is to try to prevent the irate coach situation from occurring if at all possible. Regarding the "Budweiser Ref" analogy, darn right if a coach is yelling and screaming at me, I would aspire to stay emotionless, stonefaced and quiet, and when he finishes his rant, then hit him with a calm T. I'm not there yet, but that's where I want to be, in complete control of my emotions. Again, I aspire to depersonalize all comments directed at me the official and to deal with the coach on a personal and professional level.

This may be a good place for me to jump in with my first post. I've been reading this forum for a couple of years and have benefitted often. I hope this will be a contribution.

It's my opinion that several solid suggestions can be taken from this thread. Primarily, we should constantly be aware of our people skills and how we handle coaches and players.

Our local association has a young 30 year old official that has moved up to the D-1 level quickly and is also working the NBA development league. He shared his thoughts on sideline communication with us and it boils down to the following.

1. Every official needs to learn what works for their personality. (As has been noted by several posters here.)
2. Remember that the coach is the most emotional person in the building.
3. Being non-confrontational yet authoritative (not bossy) is critical. Maintain respect.
4. Remember that comments don't require a response and questions might. The less said the better. (see coaches 5 count below)
5. Take care of business.

He said that being a young official at the D-1 level has given him a lot of opportunities to work on his communication skill as the coaches get after him pretty hard at times. He likes to use what I've come to call the "coaches 5 count" for the irritating coach that's fussing on every trip.

1. yes sir/ma'am
2. coach, I hear you.
3. coach, I understand.
4. coach, that's enough or stop sign. (you won't see stop signs too often at the higher levels.)
5. WHACK!

I'm working on my patience as I tend to leave out step 3 and go straight to step 4 and then whack.

Merry Christmas to all! Coaches too.

I only ask because I have occassionally said something to a coach to which he "escalated" and tried to one up me. At that point I whacked him. In thinking about that I am coming to the conclusion that if I am going to say something that could be construed as confrontational or smartassed to a coach, I had better be prepared to let him have a shot back at me. I don't know if that's right or wrong, I guess I'll just have to see how it goes ('cuz I'm not always smart enough to pick my words carefully in the heat of the moment).

BITS, unless he says something that's personally attacking, I'm probably not going to be too concerned with his response...and I'm probably going to be gone anyway by the time he says it! ;)

Maybe I can pull this off and others can't, I don't know. But I just don't have a problem with this turning into a baiting type of thing. Perhaps it's because my meaning is clear. Also, I don't have to use this with veteran coaches. Most of the veterans show me the same respect that I give them. It seems to be the younger coaches who are just moving into varsity jobs that require a little more "understanding" as to what's acceptable and what's not.

Do what works for you.

[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by johnny1784
[B]

You do not have to be funny when using humor to get your message across that you had enough of an irritating coach.

When a coach keeps yelling give me some of those calls too, why not reply with "coach, I ran out of minutes on my AT&T calling card."

It may or may not cease the tension but at least you tried yet if he had asked a question, you could respond on a dead ball... "Coach, we are calling it on both ends... "Can you hear me now?"

:D

You're right, that's not funny ;)