This sitch came up in my head just now as I was reading another thread about the clock not starting. It's a different situation, so I started a different thread. Don't want to get confused. Or at least not any more confused than I am already.

Suppose there are 3 seconds on the clock, tie game, ball is being inbounded by Team A under their own basket. Lead chops in the clock as the ball is touched in bounds, Trail picks up a count and after about two seconds, looks at the clock, and sees that it hasn't started. Should he....

1) stop the game, re-set the clock, and re-start?

2) try to get the clock going without stopping the game?

3) let the game go on, and stop it when time is up according to his count?

4) some other alternative I haven't thought of?

Rainmaker,

I've seen this post before and there is really NO good solution here. No matter what you do, it isn't going to feel right and someone is going to be unhappy. Clock errors by the timekeeper aren't covered in any rule book or case book that I know of.

That's why it's imperative in this situation to take your time and make sure one official goes to the table and talks to the timekeeper to remind them to watch for the chop. Even if it holds up the game for a few seconds, it's worth it!

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 02:06 PM]

1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
4) YES. Stop play. You have definite knowledge of two seconds that should have come off the clock. Put :01 on the clock and inbound. Depending on how soon the closely guarded count started, you could make a case that the quarter actually expired. OT baby!

Or if you have a courtside monitor!!!!

NFHS Case book plays 5.10 are all about timing mistakes.

If the official has definite knowledge of the elapsed time without the clock starting then the referee can correct it. In this case when you would correct it as soon as you noticed it.

The timer is given a second to start or stop the clock without it being considered a timing mistake.

If the closely guarded situation was not immediate you could still only take two seconds off the clock, because that’s the only amount of time you have definite knowledge elapsed. You can’t guess.
.


[Edited by IAABO_Ref on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 02:14 PM]

The timer is given a second to stop the clock; not to start it.

In Juulie's original play, I have yelled, "Clock" when I've noticed -- this gets others to notice. Then, I keep the count and blow the whistle when time (by my count) expires.

Crude (I've done it too) but this could be the best solution.

i think
 

with this little time you dont want to stop with 1 second left and have the offensive team re-inbound the ball -- what if coach just called a timeout to draw a play -- he wasted the timeout -- either give all 3 seconds back and let them redo or just count down the time and blow your whistle when the game ends and you can explain that to both coaches and that would be much more fair than having the team with the ball being screwed out of 2 seconds --

if you have definitive knowledge just do the last 3 seconds in your head -- if you dont then redo the 3 seconds -- its not like there is 40 seconds on the clock and you stop at 38 -- team still has a few seconds to get in a good inbounds play that could take 2-3 seconds to develop.

If this were me -- id put back on the 3 seconds since with less that 5 seconds Iwouldnt have ANY counts since it wont matter so I wont be counting anything -- i would be focused on the last shot depending on my position and lookingn for contact and release point and horn.

Under 10 seconds I dont count back court 10 count -- and under 6 seconds I dont count closely guarded. There are much more important things IMO to be focusing on with under 3 seconds than any count (all of which are irrelevant -- I mean who is going to call the 3 second violation here?).

[Edited by deecee on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 03:00 PM]

Re: i think
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by deecee
[B]
...
If this were me -- id put back on the 3 seconds since with less that 5 seconds Iwouldnt have ANY counts since it wont matter so I wont be counting anything -- i would be focused on the last shot depending on my position and lookingn for contact and release point and horn.

Under 10 seconds I dont count back court 10 count -- and under 6 seconds I dont count closely guarded. There are much more important things IMO to be focusing on with under 3 seconds than any count (all of which are irrelevant -- I mean who is going to call the 3 second violation here?).


So you are going to give the offense 2 chances to get a shot off that could win the game? Check the 1972 Olympics, the USSR got three chances at a last second shot before they finally won the gold. Of course they were down 1 point rather than tied.

What if the defense plays solid D and forces a bad shot, then you put 3 seconds back on the clock so they can get another play that might have a better result?

With 3 seconds left, one of the most important things to be aware of is the clock because you have to know if the shot was released prior to the horn.

[Edited by icallfouls on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 03:44 PM]

Re: i think
 

Having a count is how you prevent my scenaria from being a major disaster. There's NOTHING more important than the clock, especially in those last few seconds of a tie game. If you are in the habit of counting from the time the ball comes in until you glance up to see that the clock is running, you have one more strength as a referee. If you are discounting (pun!!) the importance of the clock, you are losing a certain amount of control. My question isn't whether you should be counting, it's what to do with the count when the clock isn't running correctly.

Really, Jim? You'd stop the play and have another inbound with 1 second left?

Would your procedure change if you could see that the team in control was heading for an open lay-up since the teammates had drawn the defense out of the key?

I'd stop play and put 1 second on the clock unless the player was in a clear scoring position.

The problem with letting it start late but not correcting it is that a player could glance at the clock, think they N seconds left and not take a shot they could have taken when you declare time expired when the clock still reads 2-3 seconds.

Zugzwang
 

There is no way to look good in this sitch. There are only two fair things to do:

<li>Re-start the throw-in with :03 and give the timer a wink.</li>
<li>Continue your count, note when your 3 seconds expired, and if an appreciable delay exists between that time and the horn, kill the play. This scenario is more dangerous.</li>

GBTB and putting :01 is not a fair way to end the game. It is taking the game away from the players.

Re: Zugzwang
 

I never worry about taking the game away from the oplayers. The players don't control the game. The officials do.

No way are the officials authorized to declare a do-over.

I vote for keeping the count and ending the game when your count gets to 3.

Re: Re: Zugzwang
 

And what is going to happen when the point guard briefly glances at the clock and thinks he has 3 seconds left to make a play only to have you blow the whistle and declare the game over?

I think that, unless a shooting motion has already started or is obviously about to start, the only safe thing to do is kill the play, fix the clock, and resume with a throwin.

Re: Re: Re: Zugzwang
 

What's going to happen is the game is over & we're heading to the locker room.

It is not taking the game away from the kids. It is likely that the result would be overtime once the clock is reset to :01 (in this instance). Let the KIDS decide it in OT.

Giving the offense a "do-over" is taking the game away from the defense.

I can tell you that when you explain to the coaches what is happening they will better understand the table messed up than your giving a team a second chance. I don't believe an assignor can defend their officials in this situation because the officials had knowledge that the clock did not start properly. We are not authorized to set aside rules.

Re: i think
 

This scenario is why I always have a count - especially when the clock is under 30 seconds. It's helped on more than one occasion.

As to the 3-second question, if I had been calling 3 seconds consistently all game, I'd call it here.

Re: Re: Re: Zugzwang
 

If he's worth his salt as a point guard, he'll know that there were 3 seconds on the clock when the ball was inbounded, and not think that there are three seconds left.

There are 3 seconds left in the game whether the clock properly shows them or not. If I get to a 3 count, I'm blowing the play dead.

Agreed, Dan.

Arrrrrrggggggghhhhhh!!!! I certainly hope that you are a teenager and that you still have plenty of time mature and learn the proper methods of officiating.

Almost everything you advocate is incorrect. You do at least grasp that stopping play and making the team with the ball execute another throw-in with a mere one second on the clock is putting them at a serious disadvantage. There may be hope for you.

First please go read 5.10.2 and tell me how you are going to handle that situation since you purposely weren't counting? That play ruling instructs the official to take time off the clock for the action prior to the foul by using his count! Your count is a piece of official information and has a purpose, even though you don't realize it yet, even with only a few seconds remaining in the game. You need a back-up to the official timepiece! Don't hose yourself by failing to count. You never know when it will save you. 5-10-2 clearly states that an official's count can be used as definite knowledge to correct a timer's error. What other forms of definite knowledge can you think of? Seeing the clock isn't going to help here since it isn't running. Perhaps are you working at a level where a TV monitor is used in your games? ;)

Secondly, the official's count that is referred to in 5-10-2 is the visible count listed in 2-7-9 as one of the officials duties. You advise to count in your head. Nope, no way! If you ever have a clock problem near the end of the game and have to adjust the clock, you better believe that someone is going to produce a video tape of the contest. When you are questioned on how you knew what to set the clock to, telling them you used your count isn't going to fly when they have you on video not showing a visible count. You definitely want that arm swing on tape!

Lastly, and most importantly, there is no concrete rules basis whatsoever for replaying any part of a game, even just the last few seconds. The only authority that you could claim would be 2-3 and that is pretty weak.
What you do have are specific rules governing the correcting of the clock. Hard to say that this isn't covered and use 2-3 when you have 5-10!

There are some officials, even on this forum, who will advocate redos. I am definitely not one of them.

I'm sure that you can speak with those guys from the '72 Olympics for pointers though. :rolleyes:

I agree with the make the count and blow the whistle. Everyone knows there was three seconds. No replays! no redos! no stop the clock! Time runs out and you killed the game, thats what we get paid the big bucks for.

Wont it be nice when we all go to Precision time and then we start the clock!

How does the rule book phrase " ... consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." come in here?

10-5

I assume you mean 2-10-5 ...

in which case it doesn't come into play, since this isn't a correctable error

PT doesn't work correctly 100% of the time.

Also, given the clock skills of some officials that I've seen, this may or may not be an improvement.

You have to keep the count yourself and if your sure end the game. Ir hurts both teams if you redo the play, The offense because now their inbounds play esp if they took a time out is wasted. and the defense they have to stop these guys 2wice now, ur the official u end it, Never heard of unmerited redos in basketball

Re: huh?
 

Its not what three seconds feels like. Its exact knowledge. There is nothing wrong in this situation by inbounding ball and having a count. It wont be a five second count but you can have a visible count. If you have a count here you then blow it dead and you are done. if you guess or think it was the guess is not right...

I had a situation many years ago similar to this. Home team up by 1. Clock is stopped. Three seconds left in the 4th qtr. and ball inbounded. Passed in below the FT line, ball is dribbled all the way to the other FT line and then passed to the baseline. I am expecting the horn as the ball was dribbled near the half court line (my unofficial clock in my head told me that 3 seconds had expired). Upon hearing no horn and the play continues, I sound my whistle and signal the game is over. The home timer just about screwed his own team by not starting the clock. I had no view of the clock from my vantage point and I wasn't going to take my eyes off the ball at this time.