What you guys donign about a stuck (tangled/over the rim) net?

I normally stop play immediatly as soon as observed. What if I'm prohibiting a fast break opportunity?

Then you shouldn't stop play immediately.

Daddy, there are 2 schools of thought on this within this forum.

1) Stop play at the first opportune moment and fix the net. Treat it almost as a player with a minor injury. If nothing is going on, just blow the whistle and take care of it. If there's a fast break, wait till it finishes. But then get it fixed.

2) Don't stop play at all. Just let the players and/or the play dislodge the net the next time down. This is how I handle it. In my 25 years of playing, coaching, and officiating, I've seen a wrapped net stop a ball from entering the basket exactly ONCE. And it was in a practice when one of the guys was screwing around and tightened the net on purpose. The odds of the wrapped net affecting the play are so small that it doesn't justify stopping the game, in my humble opinion.

You should ask around your area to find out how the more experienced guys expect you to handle it.

If you're going into a gym where you know the net is likely to get stuck, pre-game with your partner how you'll handle it. IMHO, it makes the crew look inconsistent if each official handles it differently.

I know this will sound sarcastic, please don't take it that way........how would I know this? Please advise.

Old gym and/or old nets...school with little or no budget to replace nets...been there before and experienced it.

BTW...I'm in Chuck's first scenario camp...why not fix it and alleviate the possible/probable complaints?

[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 20th, 2005 at 10:47 AM]

I am not aware of anything that directs us to stop play to fix it. I generally wait til the next dead ball situation. Even then, I will ask a player to show the entire gym his hops. I will not jump up to get it or toss the ball up. I once saw an official toss the ball at the net, he hit the rim and it bounced back quickly off his head. The whole stands enjoyed a laugh at the refs expense. Ever since that I decided not to put myself in that situation.

I go with Chuck's first option too. If you aren't preventing an advantage for the other team, just stop play and fix it. No harm done and no possibility of the stuck net (no matter how remote) causing you unnecessary grief.

However, that's the generally accepted practice in my area. As Chuck said, if everyone goes by option 2 in your area, you probably don't want to be the only one using option 1.

Z

A couple of years ago there was a school here that bought all new nets for all their gyms -- maybe they found a good deal at CostCo, I don't know. But those nets "stuck" like crazy. By about the fourth game in any gym, all the refs in the association knew that you could afford to just ignore it, it ALWAYS swung back down on the first touch. If we'd have stopped the game for every stuck net, we'd still be finishing the season two years later.

You can usually tell during warmups if you're going to have a problem. I had this happen a couple of years ago where the maintenance guy had replaced one net, but not the other. The old net kept flipping up and getting stuck, so he got out the second new one and had it replaced before we started the game. No problems after that.

How about...

Rule 1-10 BASKET SIZE, MATERIAL
ART. 1 . . . Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in length, <FONT COLOR=RED>suspended from beneath the ring.</FONT>


If it is wrapped over the top, it is not suspended. If it is lying across the top of the rim, it can affect any shot that makes contact with it. It should be fixed.

For none of the specifications in rule 1 is a rememdy specified but I doubt anyone would consider continuing play when a breakaway rim didn't return to position after being legally pulled down or when a ball spontaneously goes flat.

It's very well possible that you are comparing apples to oranges. ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust Quote: It should be fixed. For none of the specifications in rule 1 is a rememdy specified but I doubt anyone would consider continuing play when a breakaway rim didn't return to position after being legally pulled down or when a ball spontaneously goes flat. It's very well possible that you are comparing apples to oranges. ;)

And... a comment from camp #1 ;)

And hey, I thought it was peach baskets.
:D

Camron,
I thought about this situation a few years back and came to the same conclusion as you. The basket is now illegal due to the position of the net. As a game cannot be continued without the proper equipment as specified in the rules, I believe that the officials have to remedy this.
Hence, I stop play at the first opportunity and fix the net.

I don't...and won't.

Apples and oranges..... and trying to make a rule fit that has nuthin' to do with the actual stuation.

I don't...and won't.

Apples and oranges..... and trying to make a rule fit that has nuthin' to do with the actual stuation. [/B][/QUOTE]

What part of "net...suspended from beneath the ring" doesn't fit?

What part of "net...suspended from beneath the ring" doesn't fit? [/B][/QUOTE]Where may I find a rule directing an official to <b>immediately</b> fix the net when it's hung up? I also take it that you'll stop play immediately to fix the net as soon as you see it's hung up, even though a player may be all alone on the break. Correct?

As for Nevada, how can you say you agree with Camron, and then also say that you'll stop play <b>at the first opportunity</b> instead of stopping play <b>immediately</b>? You guys can't have it both ways if you try to use that argument.

Iow, I respect your opinion. However, I don't agree with it.

JR,
I did not see Camron write that he would immediately stop play to fix the net. Maybe he does, I don't know. I'll wait for him to clarify.
I took his comments in the context of responding to the following:

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
"I am not aware of anything that directs us to stop play to fix it. I generally wait til the next dead ball situation."

CSF seems to indicate that he would not stop the game right when the net got hung up nor would he stop it if play continued for a while without a dead ball. He says that he waits until the next dead ball.

I handle it more in the spirit of what is given in 5-8-2 Note for stopping play for an injured player. I'll stop it if the team attacking the opposite basket is not attempting to score or when the team attacking the tangled basket gains possession unless they have an immediate opportunity for an easy score.

For the record, I believe that while there is no directive in the rules book, case book, or officials manual stating to stop the game for a wrapped net, that this situation is not something the officials can just totally ignore.

I once watched a crew administer FTs while the net was tangled at the other end and never do anything about it. All that did was tick off the coach when his team got the rebound and came down the court to run their offense.

I have also seen the net get caught around the ring when a goal was not scored. A player smacked the net in attempting to block shot or perhaps it was during rebounding action. Anyway, the offensive team got the rebound and had two more quick opportunities to score, which were unsuccessful before a defender got a rebound and I stopped the game to fix the net.

I hope that clarifies my position on this.
In short, don't just let it go, take care of it at an appropriate time, and preferably soon.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 21st, 2005 at 08:17 AM]

Isn't that exactly what the people on the other side of the argument are saying also, Nevada? :)

Only they're saying that an official stopping play himself isn't really the "appropriate" time , and you're saying it is. Iow, it all comes back to a judgement call. No?

I hear alot of preaching about "game interrupters" and how they hurt the game. Generally, this is in context to calling unneccessary fouls but IMO, it also applies to the net. If it appears that the net is wrapped in such a way that it would prevent the ball from passing thru, they yes, fix it before a bigger problem ensues.

Camron, I have the utmost respect for you from your posts and you are always a positive contributor, which everybody appreciates. But, in my humble opinion, you're making a very silly argument. The net is still suspended beneath the ring, even if it's contacting the ring in an unusual way. It's certainly not suspended above the ring. It's not hovering in midair. It's suspended from the ring.

The fact that it's attached at all the usual places, and also touching the top of the ring in one unusual place doesn't mean that it's no longer suspended from the ring.

Agreed.

Never have stopped for it, never will.

IF you stopped play to fix the net,
would you allow a sub awaiting at the
table to enter? I would NOT

EEEEK !! what if??
 

what if team A scores, net gets stuck, then fast break the other way, then they come back down and shoot again, but during A1's try for the basket his teammate jumps up quickly and fixes it? interference?

Observer, I take you to mean that you would not stop play for the net. If a player has fulfilled 3-3-1-d and I stopped play for the net, I think the player should be allowed in.

I expect someone will take 3-3-2 and say the ball is about to become live and deny entry.

As we all know the ball must pass thru the net to be a valid score. If crew leaves it disrupted - even potentially a hinderence to a score - is that a correct call?

Hmmmmm.....

The question is whether the basket will affect a shot -- whether the basket is in such a circumstance that it prevents the ball from going "in". I've never seen this, although I suppose it could happen. Usually, the net is just lying on top of the ring, and at the first jiggle, it falls down. I've never seen a ball be deflected out of the basket by the net being hung up. If the net were snagged on one of the hooks, it would make sense to undo it. But if it's just flipped up, and it keeps doing it, and it never affects the shots, I'm not going to fix it. Too annoying.

Whistle = clock stopped, ball dead.

NFHS rules - you have to let the sub come in.

Where may I find a rule directing an official to <b>immediately</b> fix the net when it's hung up? I also take it that you'll stop play immediately to fix the net as soon as you see it's hung up, even though a player may be all alone on the break. Correct?

As for Nevada, how can you say you agree with Camron, and then also say that you'll stop play <b>at the first opportunity</b> instead of stopping play <b>immediately</b>? You guys can't have it both ways if you try to use that argument.

Iow, I respect your opinion. However, I don't agree with it. [/B][/QUOTE]

I never said I would stop it immediately. Like someone else has said, I would address it as soon as no direct attack on the basket was in progress.

If the net is lying across the top of the rim, it's not suspended at all. If the net is just a little tangled but entirely below the rim, I may let it be until the next whistle. It depends on how stuck it appears to be.

Yes. If there is a whistle for ANY reason, it creates an opportunity for any ready sub to enter the game (except before the 1st FT of 2 or before the 2nd of 3.)

A net laying freely across the rim could and does affect every shot that comes into contact with it. The trajectory of a bounce is altered by the presence of the net. The path of a ball rolling around the rim is altered as well. Whether it changes any particular shot from a make to a miss (or vice versa) will never be known but why let it become a potential issue. If a game winning shot is rolling around the rim such that it looks like it'll go in but hits the net and then misses, it's going to be a absolutle mess when you could have fixed it on the previous trip down the floor. If this happens, you're probably going to have one more call to make in that game(and it starts with a T).

I never said I would stop it immediately. Like someone else has said, I would address it as soon as no direct attack on the basket was in progress.

[/B][/QUOTE]How is that philosophy really any different than the posters who say they'll wait for a natural whistle? Aren't both sides just using their own best judgement as to when they think that play should stop? Who's to say who's judgement is wrong then?

Btw, team A is losing by 4 with a few seconds left in the game. They don't have any time-outs left. A1 makes a three-pointer to put them 1 point down with 5 seconds to go. The net flips up when the shot is made. Are you going to stop play because "no direct attack on the basket was in progress"?

If you stop the game, you have to allow the sub. I don't stop the game.

How is that philosophy really any different than the posters who say they'll wait for a natural whistle? Aren't both sides just using their own best judgement as to when they think that play should stop? Who's to say who's judgement is wrong then?

Btw, team A is losing by 4 with a few seconds left in the game. They don't have any time-outs left. A1 makes a three-pointer to put them 1 point down with 5 seconds to go. The net flips up when the shot is made. Are you going to stop play because "no direct attack on the basket was in progress"? [/B][/QUOTE]

That "natural whistle" may be in 10 seconds or 3-4 minutes away. How many shot attempt will have occurred in that time? There will often be several opportunities before a "natural whistle" occurs to fix it without taking away a team's advantage.

In the last 5 seconds, I'm not going to stop the game. Akin to the case place covering other endgame issues, I'd let the clock run.

ommon sense is to be applied when choosing to stop the clock....don't do it at a time when one team would directly benefit or be harmed from it.

common sense is to be applied when choosing to stop the clock....don't do it at a time when one team would directly benefit or be harmed from it. [/B][/QUOTE]Which still leaves the question.....which one of the groups on the different sides arguing this one have the correct common sense?
:)

I've never seen a net laying freely across the rim that didn't fall down at the first jostle. When that becomes an issue, I"ll follow your suggestion.

That very first contact may be the one that is altered by the presence of the net. Even if it does return to its normal position on that contact, is it fair that the team may miss the shot because of the net being out of place?

Again, Camron, this is just silly. How many times have you seen a shot altered by a net "laying freely" on the rim? Me? NEVER. Not one time. In 25 years. EVER. The only way the flipped net will affect the shot is if it's pulled so tight that it can only be done on purpose.