Hello,
I've been a head coach and assistant coach in youth basketball for the past six years and I had something happen in a game Sat. that I have never seen before.

During the first quarter of a 5th grade boys game, the head coach was up on her feet instructing the players and I was sitting next to her instructing different players at the same time. Our players were confused on defensive assignments so we were both trying to get different players to find their man assignments.

It was a small gym and we were quite loud. The lead official stopped the game. Came over and asked who was the head coach. He then said that "assistant coach couldn't coach players from the bench during play but only head coaches could do that. He said I could "coach" during timeouts and between quarters."

Between quarters, I politely approached the official, apologized, and said that I never heard of that rule before and he told me it was "in the high school rule book."

Later that night I watched two high school games and assistant coaches were yelling out instructions the entire game.

Is there such a rule for assistant coaches? Can officials instruct coaching staffs to be "quieter" when they are addressing players on the court during play?

My gut feeling is that the official in my game was probably working on his fourth straight assignment and all our yelling was giving him a headache! As an assistant referee in soccer, I can relate to that ... I'm just confused about the rules of assistant coaches "instructing players."

Thanks for your thoughts ...

As long as the ***'t coach's *** is securly in the seat except for the exceptions listed in rule 10 then I have no problem whatsoever with them coaching.

Unless there is a local rule of some kind, the officials was wrong as it relates to National Federation Rules or NCAA Rules. The official would be right as it relates to assistant coaches not being able to have the same rights as a HC in many other aspects of the game.

Having said all of that, if this was a 5th grade game I can tell you that you are going to get either brand new officials or officials that are not capable to work other levels. So what you are describing is not unusual at all at this level. I am sure that the official just got confused with another rule (unless of course there is a local rule) and was enforcing a rule that actually does not exist.

Peace

this should help inform you
 

Dano,
According to the NFHS rules as an assistant coach you are allowed to coach/instruct your players while you are SEATED on the bench. You are not allowed to STAND and give instructions except for a few specific times (one example is during a time-out).

Here is the current year's Point of Emphasis regarding the coaching box: (I've put the part mentioning assistant coaches in bold for you.)


D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.

The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is “coaching the team” has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn’t enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.

Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There’s no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.

Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is “only coaching” has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.

Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.




The above may be found at:
http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va...OOT&NewsImage=

It's probable that the ref is fairly new and just hasn't got the details ironed out yet. It was smart of you to be polite, and to not argue much. If possible, you should carry a rule book with you, so that you can politely ask the ref for a reference. You ought to wait until half time to do this so he doesn't feel like he's being put on the spot. It's also possible that it didn't sound to him like what you were saying was coaching. Perhaps he thought you were trying to instruct him. I've had games where the asst coach was yelling "Three!! Three!!" and I couldn't tell if that was a play, or whether he thought I should be calling three seconds.

In the future, if this happens again, you can instruct your players to run to the sidelines during dead balls, and give them their instructions quietly. I know this isn't as good, but it would be better than getting a T from a green ref who just doesn't know any better.

While Rut's two explanations (new official and bad official) probably are the most common, in our area one can often see varsity officials working middle school games. Most often, these varsity officials are working with the newer officials. (Just last week, an official who worked the state finals and state semi-finals in the past two seasons was working a seventh-grade game with a brand new official). In many past threads, Rut has made it clear that he chooses NOT to officiate at the middle school level for any reason -- and he has the right to make that choice for himself -- but I am writing to counter the stereotype that all middle school game officials are either inexperienced or destined-to-remain-at-that-level.

The official in this situation could be wrong and right. His statement about it being a rule in the high school rule book would count towards the "wrong" side. However, as someone else mentioned, these leagues often have their own rule adaptations.

For example, in the local 5th and 6th grade league there is no coaching box. The head coach cannot stand at all. Even though this is not how it is done in the high school games. So, it's possible your league has a rule about assistant coaches. You should look into a copy of league rules in addition to just having an NFHS rule book.

Also, in my area, many seasoned, veteran, varsity men and women work these traveling league games. It is by no means just new, green officials.

If a coach pulls a rule book out on me, that rule book will be going outa the gym. And it might be followed shortly by it's possessor. Half-time or not.

Pulling a rule book out on an official is exactly the same as telling that official that they don't know the rules. It's also embarrassing that official. It's not a good idea, imo, no matter what the level of the league or experience level of the official.

Instead, try politely asking that official to check out that particular rule when he/she gets a chance. Jmo.

I agree with JR completely...if a coach comes into our locker room totting a rule book, I don't think that coach is going to get much positive feedback.

I also disagree with JRut's blanket assesment of AAU or Middle School officials...in this area we have many State Playoff H.S. Varsity Officials doing a few of those games now and then.

You've missed the point. If your players are that confused about assignments call a time out. That is the time for both of you to coach.

In these types of threads we only get one side of the story and often we jump on the side not represented.

I do alot of middle and sub varsity games along with my varsity schedule. I would not allow 2 coaches to scream "instructions" at 5th graders. I would look under sportsmanship or mockery of the game for a rule reference.

I think it really denpends on the level of game and what the coach is doing. I myself do not do many lower level games anymore (just too much to do), but until they made me keep the coach in the box, I really didn't care where he/she went if they were coaching their team. Assistants were treated somewhat differently, although if they got up to give a command and sat back down, I rarely said anything.

But, at a middle school (un-official game that is) or lower level, I look upon that as an instructional league. The kids are there to learn, so help them learn. Do let them know that there are people out there (officials) that will make them sit down, cause that's what is in "THE BOOK", but those people are where they are for a reason. Most of them don't have the mentality to officiate anything above rec ball. They have "rabbit ears" and a temper to match (usually) and have no business on the court in the first place. But, since some of us have moved on to bigger and better things, someone has to do those games for 10 bucks or so!

IF an assistant gets up to teach, let him/her do it. If he gets up and tries to teach ME, then "Houston, we have a problem".

Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to find a pertinent rules references under either when looking. There's rules governing <b>how</b> they coach, but no rules saying that they <b>can't</b> coach.

I've got absolutly no problem with an assistant coach who is actually coaching their kids. Especially if they are sitting down. If they are standing, usually just a quick reminder that only one coach can stand. In the summer league stuff, I don't care which coach stands, but only one can. (And yes, I know that is not what the rules say but that is what I do.)

The assistant can coach from the bench. Not a problem as far as I'm concerned as long as he or she is coaching players. As far as the working lower level discussion, I'm phasing out the lower level games slowly. I tend to have "rabbit ears" when working them. I put up with far less complaining from a Freshman coach than a varsity coach. I guess I look at it as though the lower level kids are there to learn the game primarily. Coaches and players should be concerned with learning to play the game, not what I'm doing. If we can teach them proper sportsmanship then, we hopefully won't have to use a T to teach them in a varsity game when the stakes are a little higher.

This game was not a middle school game. The game was a 5th grade basketball game. There is a difference between a middle school game and a grammar school game, which this example was. I am going to take a pretty good hypothesis and say this was not a state final official that told this coach to not coach while sitting on the bench.

I also did not say that. I said that I would not fill up an entire schedule to work middle school games. In other words I am not asked because of my experience and I would not be available because of my current schedule. I never said I will not work those games at all; it is just unlikely that a person in my years of experience would even be available. Why, because most of us have real jobs and other obligations. Officiating at the very least is a hobby for most of us and when you get to a point you are not going to work a JH game at the sacrifice of your real job. Unless you are a teacher and will always end your day in the middle of the afternoon, it is not easy to work 5 and 6 days out of the week trying to officiate for maybe $40. I already lose money not taking appointments when I officiate.

Peace

When did AAU get into this conversation?

Seriously, do you guys actually read the things I say or do you just make it up as it goes along because you cannot find a statement that I make that fits? :rolleyes:

I have never said Playoff officials do not work AAU ball. I work AAU ball from time to time.

In my area it would be much harder for varsity and college officials to work. I really do not understand why that is hard to believe. I know officiating might be the only thing you do, but I do not see how guys officiate a regular HS schedule with their kids and wives (or the rare husband) to take care of. I have friends whose wives go nuts that they work 3 games a week and all the weekends are tied up.

Peace

Rut,

Nobody cares whether you do middle school games...or grammar school games...or why you make those decisions.

Some people, myself included, were miffed when you wrote the following:
----------------------------
if this was a 5th grade game I can tell you that you are going to get either brand new officials or officials that are not capable to work other levels.
----------------------------

You made this statement with an authoritative and arrogant tone. If you're going to come across that way, it's best to be right. You weren't. There are plenty of good officials who do these games for younger kids. Some do it because they enjoy the chance to work with younger people. Others do it for a little extra money. There are some outstanding officials who use lower-level games to work on finer points of their games that cannot easily be focused on during higher-level play.

This will be my last forray into the breach with you. Suffice it to say that this thread is an example of why so many on this board get irritated with you. You make a statement that's stronger than the one you mean to make. Then you're called on it. Then you take it personally, and spend pages explaining yourself. Then people write that you're missing the original point. Then you write that it's just your opinion and that we should all just get over ourselves because this is not Communist Cuba. Let me be the 238th person to say this to you: nobody denies that you have a right to your opinion. What you do not have is a right to say things others find objectionable without being responded to. If you can't take the heat, don't post editorial comments.

It is obvious to me I do not come here for the reasons you come here. I stand by my statement as it relates to where I live and where many other people live. If you can find many playoff and state final officials (not my words) then so be it. I just know that in the specific area I live not many very experienced officials are working 5th grade games. Of course there are exceptions, but not the rule by any means. If that is arrogant, then I am arrogant. Just this weekend I worked 3 games and I was on the road for most of them. I did not have the time to work a JH game (which are usually not played on the weekend) of any kind if I wanted to. I work college and high school and my weeks are very busy and conjested. At least I have a sales job where I can set my schedule better than someone that has to be at a desk or punch a clock. Also most state finals officials in this area (not all but by far most) had to work 15+ years to even get that kind of shot. Usually those are older guys and gals (late 30s to 50s) and they are not capable of working that much (their words not mine). I worked a college game with a guy on Saturday afternoon and I simply said to him that I would be working a HS game later that night. The first thing he said to me was, "I cannot do that anymore like at this age."

I travel much more than most people do when I work a lot of games. I have contacts all over my state and I get asked to go work games almost 2 hours away on a very regular basis. I know I do not get offended when folks say to me, "I would not go that far." That is there opinion and choice.

The bottom line is you do not like what I said and you will never like what I say. You are also the same person that got upset when everyone here got on you about Duke's Head Basketball coach and I remember how offended you were then when people were sharing their opinion about that subject. If you do not like what I have to say, deal with it.

If you do not like what I have to say, do not read my posts. I do not get any extra money or get extra games for the people that read my posts or agree with them. I stated what is usually the truth from not just what I say, what many other people say all over the country. This is not the only place where people talk officiating or what goes on around them.

If you feel I get upset, then I guess you will have to keep thinking that way. There are bigger things in the world to get upset about. I have a roof over my head and many people that are close to me are safe. Talking about officiating is not something to get upset over. I could stop tomorrow and I am very blessed with what I have done around it and I have many more things in life to accomplish.

You have a Happy Holidays and a Good New Year.

Peace

Sigh. Sometimes you make me think I must have been absent the day they taught English in English class.

Remember, I did not go and seek you in this post. If you did not want to hear what I have to say, then why in the hell did you make your comments?

That is what we call a "rhetorical question."

Peace

Rut,

Since I missed the day they taught English in English class, I don't know what this mysterious "rhetorical question" is. I do know what a "question" is, though, so I'll answer the one you put forth.

I respond to your stuff because I have a hero complex. Every time I read one of your famous logic-challenged, context-ignoring posts, I think to myself, "It could be me. I could be the one, after all these years, to be able to make a logical connection with Rut, to rescue him from his seemingly chronic tendency to fall into the vicious traps of the strawman and the non sequitor; I could be the one to finally convince him that his experiences are not universal, and that he must thus learn to use 'qualifiers' in his writing, to indicate pre- rather than post-mayhem that that is only his own, particular, limited experience."

Also I like pain.

Are you still here?

Peace

I had not browsed this site or posted for months until tonight....and the third thread I opened is this!!

Anyway, I do have to admit, Jbduke, that was hilarious.

I think maybe I speak for a whole bunch of us when I say:



"HUH??"

I can only imagine what would have happened this fall in MS ball if I asked a ref why the visiting scorer could indicate a bonus situation. :D (He wanted to put me back in the stands for that :( )

I was thinking a similar thing. I guess he found it funny. He probably thinks everyone thought Seinfeld was funny too.

Peace

No, Rut, I didn't figure you for one who would appreciate Seinfeld's wit and wisdom.

[Edited by jbduke on Dec 19th, 2005 at 11:41 PM]

Whatever you say bandwagon fan.

Peace

Yeah, uh, I actually went to school there.

I cannot tell. You should have more self-esteem.

Peace

HUH again
 

I remain lost. You are saying:

a. You know most people think Seinfeld is funny but you don't.

b. The dialogue on Seinfeld is over your head.

c. Something else that most of us don't understand.


I like Seinfeld myself if that helps any. :)

Re: HUH again
 

I did not particularly like Seinfeld. But I never found his comedy as funny either. The show was never that funny to me. Curb Your Enthusiasm is much funnier and more intelligent show in my eyes. I also have not liked any sitcom on network TV since maybe the early 90s (at least that was not animated). Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle are much funnier in my book. I like comedy that is silly but has a social conscious to it. Seinfeld was just silly and juvenile.

Peace