LONG FOUL CALL

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by tomegun
I always find it interesting that some people are always in favor of going against what is mechanically sound to watch the ball. You can always find a reason to watch the ball. How about finding a reason to stay back with 7 players who aren't going to announce, "Mr. Official, we are on the brink of fighting, pleas stay back and watch us."

It's not about ball watching, it's about getting the play right. When you have no competitive matchups in the backcourt, you move up to help your partner. It doesn't mean you completely ignore the rest of the players, but you don't say 70 feet away.

Also, no one's gonna say, "We're on the brink of fighting" but if you have game awareness you will know if there are problem players in the game who would have the potential of fighting by the 4th quarter. Using your knowledge of the game and common sense, moving up to help out the new lead here is something you gotta do. Staying back and justifying it weakly be saying "I was watching the other players" is just an excuse for being lazy and shirking responsibility. Again, how many times in your games has a fight broken out on a fast break in the backcourt? This isn't hockey.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Puh-leeze...

btw...there's a word for officials who 'bust @ss' downcourt as new T on steals leaving opponents behind them: rookies.

And the ones who don't, there is a word too:

Lazy.

I find it funny that those that have probably not done a 2 person game in forever are the ones giving an opinion.

How about spinning the original post, after all the play came up Big O's side of the floor.

What happens to all you straggler watchers, if A1 pulls up for the 3...IN YOUR PRIMARY...and there may be contact? Is it even a 3?

You now have left your partner judging if it's a 3 without an angle on the line, and judging contact in a stack.

This is not about being there to watch the play at the basket, it is about being there because we DON'T KNOW what the possible play will be. It is just as likely that something bad will happen with the second layer of players in the FC as the 2 kids farther back.

FYI, I did games yesterday and not one time during a fast break did 7 players stay 70 feet from the other end, NOT ONCE.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I find it funny that those that have probably not done a 2 person game in forever are the ones giving an opinion.

. [/B]

And who would these people be?

[tomegun]

I worked a two-man varsity boys game on Friday, so I know he isn't talking about me!

There is always a reason to do something that ends up with an official watching the ball. I think it would send a better message to young officials if we try to point out the reasons for not watching the ball.

Again, when you have to ask everyone except the crossing guard if a player got fouled, you probably shouldn't make a call.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tomegun
I worked a two-man varsity boys game on Friday, so I know he isn't talking about me!

There is always a reason to do something that ends up with an official watching the ball. I think it would send a better message to young officials if we try to point out the reasons for not watching the ball.

Again, when you have to ask everyone except the crossing guard if a player got fouled, you probably shouldn't make a call.

I guess I need to spell this out for you.

You are arguing something that was never said, nor even implied.

What you keep missing is perhaps, just perhaps, if Big O had not hung back 70 feet...and once again, when was the last time only 3 players moved to the frontcourt in transition in any of your games...he WOULD NOT HAVE TO ASK EVERYONE if his partner missed something or if he should go get something.

That is what we have been saying. NOT if he should be ball watching, NOT that he should be making an AT&T call, but that he needs to make it to the frontcourt with the players and be in position to help his partner.

This should be no different than a half court play. Trail has secondary areas and needs to be in position to assist the lead.

[BIG O]

Most of you are saying that the "BIG O" was not hustling. Only I know how fast I was going, only I can answer it. "HUSTLING" I'm not talking about an all out sprint. Do any of you sprint 100%? Give all that you have? I've been told to NEVER run as fast as you can in reffing.... I personaly get this out of control viewing in vission, if in full 100% speed. Any one relate to this type of speed? Kind of like a hydro boat? My opinion, a ref shoundn't run full speed, ever.

Now, I'm no Carl Lewis, but I know not too many of you would of been out in front of me on this turn around, even at my "HUSTLE" speed. I was in no way lagging behind, I'm very fast if I need to be, really fast if I have my OC patent leather shoes on, even with a flat tire & while eatting donuts..... but I was checking on those other 7 players, glancing at the layup, & telling myself to never make a AT&T call.......

Final suggestions - " NO CALL" ? OR AT&T CALL? Let's hear from everyone.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by blindzebra
You are arguing something that was never said, nor even implied.

Sigh.

No, actually, that's you. The only question asked in the original post was whether a call should be made from a long way away, even if the official was not sure of the call.

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by BIG O
Most of you are saying that the "BIG O" was not hustling. Only I know how fast I was going, only I can answer it. "HUSTLING" I'm not talking about an all out sprint. Do any of you sprint 100%? Give all that you have? I've been told to NEVER run as fast as you can in reffing.... I personaly get this out of control viewing in vission, if in full 100% speed. Any one relate to this type of speed? Kind of like a hydro boat? My opinion, a ref shoundn't run full speed, ever.

Now, I'm no Carl Lewis, but I know not too many of you would of been out in front of me on this turn around, even at my "HUSTLE" speed. I was in no way lagging behind, I'm very fast if I need to be, really fast if I have my OC patent leather shoes on, even with a flat tire & while eatting donuts..... but I was checking on those other 7 players, glancing at the layup, & telling myself to never make a AT&T call.......

Final suggestions - " NO CALL" ? OR AT&T CALL? Let's hear from everyone.

NO CALL- Stay away from it. Youd have to be able to see it from 15,000ft in the fog to call something that far away

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by BIG O
Final suggestions - " NO CALL" ? OR AT&T CALL? Let's hear from everyone.

I think, actually most of us agree you shouldn't make that call. You weren't 100% sure, and you would've had to guess on which player to call it on.

Btw, keep up the good work, and stay away from those donuts.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Sigh.

No, actually, that's you. The only question asked in the original post was whether a call should be made from a long way away, even if the official was not sure of the call.

My answer was no,BUT that official should never find himself 70 feet from it.

Try to keep up.

[M&M Guy]

No, actually what you said was:

Originally posted by blindzebra
My question is why if A1 has the entire court to go after the steal, why is the varsity vet still 70' away?

A1 must really have some wheels to go 70+ feet to your 15.

[Rich]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Where in the post did it say the other 7 players all stayed deep in the backcourt?

In 2 person, you do not always have the luxury of boxing in all 10 players on every play, if you want to call the game, anyway.

I can't speak for everyone, but the question asked was should trail get this?

My response was that if trail would have ran, they would have:

a) Seen the play better, to know if they actually needed to help.

b) Been in a position to close and make a call from a reasonable distance and not 70 feet.

Not to sound mean, but unless you are in an area that is still using 2 person and are having to cover the court without that backside help of a center official, perhaps those questioning the need for trail to bust arse to help in 2 person coverage, need to re-look at the situation.

How far would a new trail (old lead) official get, realistically, if a pass is picked off at midcourt and taken in for a layup. Consider (and I recognize that this isn't exactly what happened on the play in question):

(1) The old lead was on the baseline
(2) The steal was out of the old lead's primary

and the player stealing the ball was probably at or near the three point line before the new trail got completely ON THE COURT. That official's nort going to get terribly far even IF he/she runs like a jackrabbit. That's why you can manage to officiate with 2, but you're not always going to get the backside help you'd like.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
No, actually what you said was:

I've answered it several times, it's not my fault you are too dense to grasp it.

I see you have trouble keeping up on both the forum and the court.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

How far would a new trail (old lead) official get, realistically, if a pass is picked off at midcourt and taken in for a layup. Consider (and I recognize that this isn't exactly what happened on the play in question):

(1) The old lead was on the baseline
(2) The steal was out of the old lead's primary

and the player stealing the ball was probably at or near the three point line before the new trail got completely ON THE COURT. That official's nort going to get terribly far even IF he/she runs like a jackrabbit. That's why you can manage to officiate with 2, but you're not always going to get the backside help you'd like.

The day I can't cover more than 15 feet when a player has to go 50, is the day I hang it up.

The play as described was that A1 and the official in question started around 15 feet or so apart, so even with stopping and changing direction factored in, how did 15 feet become 70?

I know my answer and it isn't worrying about the other 7 players, who all mysteriously decided to not run back down court.

[tomegun]

There are many times when I really wish I could see some people on this forum work. You are really stuck on this theory that Big O wasn't hustling. Your comments give me some idea about you running around just to be in the same area as the ball even if it means you run by the majority of the players.

Yesterday I say 7 players stay back when three were on the other end. This was in a D2 game, so it does happen. It is normally called a fast break. The other players think the play is going to be over before they can get down there. It happened Friday too in a high school game. Maybe someone has experience but they don't have enough experience.

The day I think that my movement, at any position, should be controlled by where the ball goes, is the day I should hang them up. What kind of logic is involved when someone says you should go more than distance B when the ball has to go distance A? Then you have the nerve to say you aren't talking about ball watching? Maybe you got that by somebody, but you didn't get it past me!

[Edited by tomegun on Dec 19th, 2005 at 05:19 AM]