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-   -   5 Second count? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/2361-5-second-count.html)

Suppref Wed May 16, 2001 02:47pm

After team A's made basket, everyone with the exception of B1 heads down court. B1 picks up the loose ball out of bounds on the endline and is facing the court, I'm standing OOB about 10 feet from him. I start my 5 second count. At 2 -onethousand B1 realizes there is noone to inbound to, B1 tosses the ball to me, which hits me in the chin (of course) and dislodges the whistle from my mouth. The ball caroms of me, back to B1 all the while still OOB. I'm still counting and am at 5 seconds. By the time I get the whistle back to my mouth the ball is inbounded and is 2 or 3 dribble down court. This is an 8th grdae summer league game so I bite the whistle. My question is, if this is a Varsity HS game do I blow the late whistle for the violation, or laugh it off like everyone else in the gym? (most embarassing)

112448 Wed May 16, 2001 03:21pm

wow. interesting situation. with the ability to think on his/her feet like that, the kid is going places.

to answer your question, how about looking at NFHS 9-2-10:

No player shall: Be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.

arguably, the thrower had "released the ball," and he/she was clearly "out of bounds when he/she touch(ed) the ball." so you could have a violation independent of the potential 5 second count.

any other thoughts out there? what a weird play.

jake

Dan_ref Wed May 16, 2001 03:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suppref
After team A's made basket, everyone with the exception of B1 heads down court. B1 picks up the loose ball out of bounds on the endline and is facing the court, I'm standing OOB about 10 feet from him. I start my 5 second count. At 2 -onethousand B1 realizes there is noone to inbound to, B1 tosses the ball to me, which hits me in the chin (of course) and dislodges the whistle from my mouth. The ball caroms of me, back to B1 all the while still OOB. I'm still counting and am at 5 seconds. By the time I get the whistle back to my mouth the ball is inbounded and is 2 or 3 dribble down court. This is an 8th grdae summer league game so I bite the whistle. My question is, if this is a Varsity HS game do I blow the late whistle for the violation, or laugh it off like everyone else in the gym? (most embarassing)
First thing is you need to practice ducking those funny
passes! :) BTW, in a game last season a *HARD* no look pass
from the free throw line was deflected at the last second,
just missing my head. I didn't see it until it went
whizzing by me, I was told later by my partner he was
certain my nose was about to be broken until the ball was tipped. Anyway, I think I would have called the violation in
your case, even if it was just an 8th grade summer game.

Hawks Coach Wed May 16, 2001 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by 112448
wow. interesting situation. with the ability to think on his/her feet like that, the kid is going places.

to answer your question, how about looking at NFHS 9-2-10:

No player shall: Be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.

arguably, the thrower had "released the ball," and he/she was clearly "out of bounds when he/she touch(ed) the ball." so you could have a violation independent of the potential 5 second count.

any other thoughts out there? what a weird play.

jake

I inferred when suppref said he was OOB and that ball always stayed OOB, suppref was on the baseline. Therefore, there is no violation for throwing the ball along the baseline and having it bounce off the ref back to you. Suppose the same thing occurred, only the ref was positioned between B1 and B2 on baseline and B1 was attempting to pass along baseline to B2. Lack of a B2 on the baseline as a target doesn't change the ruling.

If it was clearly a 5 count before ball got inbounded, that was a violation and should have been blown. Kids can't bail themselves out on a five count by tossing to ref to get a do-over, especially 8th grade. Your call to make or not, but I think summer league is a good place for players to make those mistakes and learn that they are wrong, so these same players don't do it next year in a high school game that counts.



[Edited by Hawks Coach on May 16th, 2001 at 03:41 PM]

BktBallRef Wed May 16, 2001 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I inferred when suppref said he was OOB and that ball always stayed OOB, suppref was on the baseline. Therefore, there is no violation for throwing the ball along the baseline and having it bounce off the ref back to you. Suppose the same thing occurred, only the ref was positioned between B1 and B2 on baseline and B1 was attempting to pass along baseline to B2. Lack of a B2 on the baseline as a target doesn't change the ruling.

Sorry coach but I'm afraid that it does. If the official was OOB when the ball hit him, you have an immediate violation. A thrower is not allowed to throw the ball off anything that's OOB, when making a throw-in. He can only pass it to a teammate who is OOB. Since their is no teammate OOB, the ball must be passed directly inbounds.

7-6-1
The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in 7-5-7, within five seconds after the throw-in starts.

7-5-7
After a goal or awarded goal as in 7-4-3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a <b>teammate(s)</b>. outside the boundary line.

9-2-2
Fail to pass the ball directly into the court <b>so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.</b>

Hawks Coach Wed May 16, 2001 05:44pm

I always thought ref was considered part of floor. If so, can B1 attempt to throw to B2 (OOB) and hit ref, then pick ball up and reattempt to get to B2 (if enough time is left) or throw ball in (assuming ball remained OOB)?

Richard Ogg Wed May 16, 2001 06:55pm

As long as 7-5-7 allows for a bounce pass, then I agree with Hawks Coach - the ball is still live. However, I try to always anticipate enough to dodge the ball. (I played that a lot, er, quite a few years ago and got reasonably good.)

I'd call the 5-second violation, even late. Had a similar sitch where I tossed for the start of game. The ball was recovered by a player in her front court, who immediately passed it to their guard standing in the back court. I think I yelled "stop, wait" while trying to get my whistle in my mouth as the guard drove into the front court. Turns out my partner saw me and hit his whistle even though he had no idea why I wanted the game stopped. I made the call and we went on....

BktBallRef Wed May 16, 2001 11:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I always thought ref was considered part of floor.
An official is not "part of the floor" per se. That's probably a bad cliche to use. An official is either inbound or OOB based on where he is standing. If he's OOB and the ball touches him, the last player to touch the ball has violated.

Quote:

If so, can B1 attempt to throw to B2 (OOB) and hit ref, then pick ball up and reattempt to get to B2 (if enough time is left) or throw ball in (assuming ball remained OOB)?
No. A violation has occurred when the ball hits the official. While the ball can be bounce passed to a teammate OOB, it cannot touch anything else that is OOB, whether it be a wall, a door, an official or a basket support.

It's no different than a BC pass by A1 hitting an official in the FC, bouncing back into the BC and being retrieved by A1. It's a BC violation, even though the pass was meant for A2.

Richard, if you agree with the coach, you'll probably have a good game if you get the opportunity to work for him! :)

[Edited by BktBallRef on May 16th, 2001 at 11:50 PM]

Brian Watson Thu May 17, 2001 07:18am

Ahh.... summer leagues.

If it can happen it will!

Hit the whistle late, no reason to award him for stretching the rules like silly putty.

devdog69 Thu May 17, 2001 12:04pm

I definitely disagree with the idea that tossing the ball to the ref is an automatic violation. This happens quite often at that age level, I have found. When they have the ball out of bounds after a made basket, they can dance the jig for five seconds, I could care less what they do as long as the ball is still out of bounds. I usually just swat the ball back toward them without catching it or if it is close to them and they have just dropped it towards me, I will just let it go and give them a raised eyebrow look that lets them know it is theirs to get. I have not had one single murmur out of a coach or fan about handling this common situation like this.

Brian Watson Thu May 17, 2001 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
I definitely disagree with the idea that tossing the ball to the ref is an automatic violation. This happens quite often at that age level, I have found. When they have the ball out of bounds after a made basket, they can dance the jig for five seconds, I could care less what they do as long as the ball is still out of bounds. I usually just swat the ball back toward them without catching it or if it is close to them and they have just dropped it towards me, I will just let it go and give them a raised eyebrow look that lets them know it is theirs to get. I have not had one single murmur out of a coach or fan about handling this common situation like this.
I'm not sure if we are saying to call him on throwing at the official, I get the impression there was a 5 second violation but the official did not have the whistle in his mouth becuase he got nailed.

Mark Padgett Thu May 17, 2001 04:48pm

I'm not going to debate whether you should be strict on your calls at this level or give a kid a do-over, because I am on record for making the call, then explaining it. My reasons for this have been stated many times. I do disagree with those that feel the ball hitting the ref caused a violation. I do not think stating that the ref is part of the floor for these purposes in incorrect. Here's why:

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I always thought ref was considered part of floor.
An official is not "part of the floor" per se. That's probably a bad cliche to use. An official is either inbound or OOB based on where he is standing. If he's OOB and the ball touches him, the last player to touch the ball has violated.

True, but only if the player was inbounds. If the ball started OOB and was always OOB, there is no inbounds violation (there may have been a 5 second violation in this case, however).

Quote:

If so, can B1 attempt to throw to B2 (OOB) and hit ref, then pick ball up and reattempt to get to B2 (if enough time is left) or throw ball in (assuming ball remained OOB)?
No. A violation has occurred when the ball hits the official. While the ball can be bounce passed to a teammate OOB, it cannot touch anything else that is OOB, whether it be a wall, a door, an official or a basket support. It's no different than a BC pass by A1 hitting an official in the FC, bouncing back into the BC and being retrieved by A1. It's a BC violation, even though the pass was meant for A2.[Edited by BktBallRef on May 16th, 2001 at 11:50 PM]

I disagree totally. No violation occurred when the ball hit the ref if the ref was OOB. In the backcourt situation, the violation occurs not when the ball hits the ref (yes, I know that's not the point of the quote) but because when it hits the ref the ball gains backcourt status and then is touched by A1. Hitting the ref while the ref is OOB means the ball just retains OOB status. It's the same theory if the ball is passed from inbounds and hits a ref OOB. The ball is then ruled OOB because it gained OOB status when it hit the ref.

To me, the player hitting the OOB ref with the ball is no different that if he bounced it OOB before the inbound pass.

BTW - I know I've told this before, but it seems appropriate here. When my son, Josh, was a junior, his team was ahead by just a few points late in the game. The other team had just scored to close within 4. My son, who is also a referee (this is important), went to inbound the ball. All his teammates went downcourt, just like in the case above. Josh knew his team was out of timeouts. The official had started his 5 count. Josh then turned to him and said, "There's something on the ball." The official blew his whistle and held up his hand for an official's timeout. He then put his hands out to receive the ball. Josh, however, wiped the ball on his shorts and said, "There, I think I got it all." He then bounced the ball to the official. Meanwhile, his coach was able to yell at his teammates and get them back into the backcourt.

After the game, I asked Josh if, as a referee, he would ever fall for a trick like that. He replied, "Not now."

BktBallRef Thu May 17, 2001 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I disagree totally. No violation occurred when the ball hit the ref if the ref was OOB. In the backcourt situation, the violation occurs not when the ball hits the ref (yes, I know that's not the point of the quote) but because when it hits the ref the ball gains backcourt status and then is touched by A1.
You're absolutely correct. That's not the point of the quote. The point was that if the ball hits the official, the ball has FC status.

Quote:

Hitting the ref while the ref is OOB means the ball just retains OOB status. It's the same theory if the ball is passed from inbounds and hits a ref OOB. The ball is then ruled OOB because it gained OOB status when it hit the ref.

To me, the player hitting the OOB ref with the ball is no different that if he bounced it OOB before the inbound pass.

That sure sounds all well and good but how about quoting a rule to back it up, instead of just offering another opinion. The ball wasn't dribbled, it wasn't passed to a teammate and it wasn't passed inbounds. Therefore, per 7-6-1, 7-5-7, and 9-2-2, it's violation.

Now, I'm not necessarily advocating calling it, and it may violate what probably should happen but by the rules quoted, it's a violation.

BktBallRef Thu May 17, 2001 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
I definitely disagree with the idea that tossing the ball to the ref is an automatic violation. This happens quite often at that age level, I have found. When they have the ball out of bounds after a made basket, they can dance the jig for five seconds, I could care less what they do as long as the ball is still out of bounds. I usually just swat the ball back toward them without catching it or if it is close to them and they have just dropped it towards me, I will just let it go and give them a raised eyebrow look that lets them know it is theirs to get. I have not had one single murmur out of a coach or fan about handling this common situation like this.
I didn't say that tossing the ball at the official is a violation. I'm saying if the ball hits the official, who's OOB, it's a violation. I'm also not necessarily advocating calling it. I would probably step out of the way and call the ball OOB when it hit the bleachers, a fan or something else that was OOB. But I would love to see the rule that states that it isn't a violation. Can you supply it?

Throwing the ball off an official isn't any different than passing it off the wall behind the player. Can the thrower pass the ball to himself by throwing it off the back of the backboard, then passing it inbounds? If he can't, how is that any different than passing it off an official?

So many on this forum just give us their opinion or tell us what they do without ever cracking a rule book. If you're going to convince me that a play should be called a certain rule, cite a rule and explain your interpretation. You may or may not convince me but at least we're looking at some documentation. Not just guesses and opinions.

Camron Rust Thu May 17, 2001 06:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I didn't say that tossing the ball at the official is a violation. I'm saying if the ball hits the official, who's OOB, it's a violation. I'm also not necessarily advocating calling it. I would probably step out of the way and call the ball OOB when it hit the bleachers, a fan or something else that was OOB. But I would love to see the rule that states that it isn't a violation. Can you supply it?

Yes. Rule 4-4-2. "A ball which touches...an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location"

Quote:


Throwing the ball off an official isn't any different than passing it off the wall behind the player.

As above, it is specficially defined as being equal to touching the floor.

Quote:


Can the thrower pass the ball to himself by throwing it off the back of the backboard, then passing it inbounds?

You are right. It is specficially declared that a ball contacting the back of the backboard is a violation in all cases.
Quote:


If he can't, how is that any different than passing it off an official?

Because the floor is not the same as the back of the backboard.

So, if it a spot throwin and the ball is thrown off an OOB official it is essentially a dribble. If the play can reach the ball without leaving the spot, it is all legal.

If it is a throwin after a basket, the player may run to get it or a teammate may step OOB to get it. It is essentially dribble or a bounce pass, both of which are allowed on such a throw-in.


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