Last night in HS game, we had a player from Team A have the ball knocked away on the dribble by Team B. As A1 and B1 went for the ball, A1 fouled B1. Incorrectly, we awarded B1 the bonus. (Wait for a minute and I'll explain)

B1 made both free throws with 6.5 seconds left in the first half. Team A inbounded, dribbled the length of the floor and made a mid-range jumper. Horn sounded after ball fell through net but before Team B touched ball. The ball maybe bounced once on the floor before the horn.

During halftime, we agreed that we should not have awarded shots under the new team control rule. We made a regrettable mistake. But now after agreeing with my partners that we screwed up, I suggest that we still MIGHT be in the correctable error situation.

The discussion point seems to be:

1) if Team B had not had the ball at its disposal for the throw-in after the buzzer-beater, we could have corrected by disallowing the two Team B free throws, allowing the Team A buzzer-beater and starting the second half with the AP arrow in the direction it was pointing.

2) if Team B was judged to have had the ball at its disposal, we just simply were too late to correct and start the second half with AP arrow in the direction it was pointing.

Thoughts?

LOL. As if correctable errors weren't complicated enough, now we have the end of a half to make it even more complicated. We might need to get the supreme court involved in this one. :D

Technically, I think you have it spelled out pretty much correct. It was a team control foul. Unmerited free throws were awarded.

If team B didn't touch the ball, you are still within the "correction period."

If we're going to fix it, how about if I stand over here opposite of tableside while you go explain it to everyone. Call me over when you need me to tell coach B that he is seatbelted for the rest of the game. :D

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Dec 9th, 2005 at 11:29 AM]

I know what you mean. Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B.

Would have been very interesting to come back on the floor at the break, take away 2 points from the team that was trailing at halftime and tell the coach that the last-second basket was going to stand.

We survived and learned.

"Horn sounded after ball fell through net but before Team B touched ball. The ball maybe bounced once on the floor before the horn."

So you know you screwed up a rule, so your way of fixing it was to knowingly screw up another?

I don't believe we knowingly screwed up another rule. Our way of moving forward was to discuss whether the ball was at the disposal of the thrower or not, the old lead/new trail said it was and we went from there.

The viewpoint of "maybe once" comes from me, the T. My L said that Team B had a chance to in-bound (time left is not an element here) so we were past the point of correcting.

We "debated" long and hard on the disposal point during halftime.

As we concluded this morning in our review, we learned from the mistake and hope that it doesn't happen again.

If in your opinion, we kicked it twice, then we kicked it twice. I can live with the criticism.

This is called rationalization.

You said the ball was not at the disposal, now you say new lead said it was, after a long halftime debate.

Which is it?

I say, your crew took the easy way out.

You miss the TC rule, shoot unmerited FTs, don't fix a correctable error, because...and I quote..."Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B."

I'd say you kicked it more than 2 times.:rolleyes:

So you know another official missed a rule; and your way of helping that official not to repeat the same mistake was to use mocking sarcasm?

There is a big difference between missing a rule or kicking a call and this:

"Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B."

That is cowardly and unethical.

You're right. I posted here so I could rationalize and get called "cowardly and unethical". That's way over the line.

I guess I was hopeful that I would discuss a situation that we know we got wrong, point out how we got ourselves in deeper trouble and how we handled it. There's no beaming sence of pride in any of that.

As a crew, we came together, discussed what happened and moved on. Maybe you don't turn to your partners for help.

The old Lead, who was also the R, said the ball was at their disposal; I disagreed in the conversation, but had no clear knowledge that it wasn't at their disposal. We made a decision and moved on.

You live, you learn. Appreciate your kind words though.

Nope when I get with my partners we do the right thing, we don't sweep it under the rug.

IMO, none of you were as concerned about fixing it as you were not owning up to the mistakes.

You really want to live and learn?

Send a detailed report to your assignor and a letter to both schools.;)

Kenthree, don't take BZ too seriously.

He gets this way when his diaper needs changing.

Thanks for the post, something to think about. I'm pretty sure I would have found a way for the crew to agree that the ball was at the disposal like you guys did. I guess we're all just a bunch of unethical cowards.

:shrug:

And you'd be correct for once.

You'll be happy to know that we weren't afraid to tell the assignor and discuss with the state association this morning.

Enough.

Put me on the list of unethical cowards too.

Z

Me too. I ain't ready to be hung on a cross yet. I make mistakes too.

I agree that Dan's correct too. :D

You'd be the last one I'd suspect would willingly agree to fudge what happened to avoid the embarrassment of fixing it.

I'm shocked and disappointed.

BZ,

I hope you don't parent like you critique other officials. Ken came onto the boards and shared a situation that he felt he'd handled improperly. You decided to play armchair judge, jury and executioner in asciribing character-related reasons for his crew's mistake. You could have added something calm and reasoned, while still remaining true to your beliefs about the situation. Maybe something like,

"I've been there. It's tough when you know that you've made a mistake that no one else in the gym is aware of; especially when fixing that mistake has the potential to turn placid waters into a perfect storm. That's where you have to make a decision for yourself. Is doing what's hard but correct (by rule) the right course of action, or do you stay headache-free and live with a mistake that, going unnoticed by others, would not be the end of anybody's world? It's not an easy question. It's a value judgment, to be sure. As for me, I'd rather take my medicine."

As for you, though, that wasn't enough. You had to demonstrate righteous indignation that someone else would take the "low road." My experience with some Alabama football fans and some North Carolina basketball fans has confirmed for me what I had believed through studying the virtues: those who possess them don't talk about them. I've heard fans of the aforementioned programs talk about how much class they have and how little Auburn's and Duke's fans have, respectively. Always makes me want to vomit. Same goes for courage. Those who truly have it don't have need to call others cowardly. There are other ways to get your point across that are both more effective and less obnoxious.

I'm going to make a mistake in my game tonight. I'll no doubt make one tomorrow as well. I dare say the same goes for you. With that in mind, do you want to foster an environment in which officials feel free to admit mistakes and learn from them in hopes of not repeating them, or do you want to help create an environment where people don't feel free to be honest with themselves and others because of fear of mockery and castigation? As for me, I choose the former.

My perception is that you aren't nearly so concerned with helping others improve as you are with helping yourself to feel superior. Submissions that might mitigate against this perception are welcome and encouraged.

I hope you are perfect tonight.

BZ, doing something like sending out exams and answers over the internet is unethical. Of course, that's also my opinion only, and I know that there's posters here that disagree completely with me on that one. Screwing up a call and having the <i>cojones</i> to admit it publically to his peers on this forum though doesn't make a fellow official cowardly and unethical imo. The guy was right up-front on the play- he admitted that he made a mistake and screwed the play up completely. He's obviously learned a lesson from it. He obviously wanted input to see if there was anything else to be learned from the unfortunate incident too.

Yes, I personally do get carried away myself and maybe go too far sometimes. In this case, calling the guy "cowardly and unethical" for screwing up this particular call is just way over the top. Again, that's just my opinion only and I ain't gonna get into an extended flame war about it.

So coming on a forum anonymously is brave?

It does not change the fact that it was admitted that the crew KNEW at the time they had a correctable error situation that could be fixed, but chose instead to use disposal as an out.

"Since only three people in gym who knew what had happened were wearing striped shirts, we agreed that ball was at disposal of Team B."

Oh well, as long as only we know we are not fixing something we should, it's okay.

Save the armchair psychology for someone else Dr. Phil.

Yep, every post I make is to feel superior, and I have no desire to improve myself or other officials.

Since you pull the day-time TV psychology out so freely, perhaps, said poster wanted to be criticized because he felt guilty about doing the wrong thing?

It's called "tough love".

If one cannot handle things said on a message board, how are they gonna handle coaches and fans?

So coming on a forum anonymously is brave?

[/B][/QUOTE]I stopped reading right there.

I come on this forum anonymously.

Is Blind Zebra your real name?

End of discussion.

I stopped reading right there.

I come on this forum anonymously.

Is Blind Zebra your real name?

End of discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I'm told his real name is Blin Dzebra. Czech or Polish or something.

Anyway...this is sure getting silly. Can one of the mods lock this thing so Blin doesn't throw his back out trying to justify being such a prick?

(btw...Carl told me the word "prick" is OK last week, otherwise I wouldn't dare use it.)

Oh wait...before this entire thing gets deleted, you might enjoy this:

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilber...5112210209.gif

[Edited by Dan_ref on Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:23 PM]

Actually I'm told his real name is Blin Dzebra. Czech or Polish or something.

Anyway...this is sure getting silly. Can one of the mods lock this thing so Blin doesn't throw his back out trying to justify being such a prick?

(btw...Carl told me the word "prick" is OK last week, otherwise I wouldn't dare use it.)

Oh wait...before this entire thing gets deleted, you might enjoy this:

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilber...5112210209.gif

[Edited by Dan_ref on Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:23 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Talk about a pot calling the kettle black, I'm not even in the same neighborhood of prickdom as you.

I stopped reading right there.

I come on this forum anonymously.

Is Blind Zebra your real name?

End of discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]

As a matter of fact...:D

So, saying that none of us are risking anything by posting somehow hurts my argument?

You just PROVED my point, thanks.;)