I appreciate everyones feedback on dealing with the coaches. So thank you for your time and suggestions. It gave me hope that someday I too may have this mysterious set of skills. LOL

Now,I need everybody to remember back to the day when they did the lower levels. I do all lower level games, frosh/jv. . The type of games where I get to work on advantage/Disadvantage ALL game long. The game where the point guards best move is putting her off-hand in front of the ball while she is dribbling to protect it. It is not always pretty but I make the effort and do want to do a good job.

Example.
1. Girl may have dragged her foot a wee bit. I judge no advantage.
2. Coach is now pleading "thats travelling". She is correct.
3. Then the defender may have gotten a little carried away with a handcheck.Player plays through. I judge no advantge gained. Other coach is now crying "Thats a foul," Coach is correct.

Now i have 2 coaches upset about the lack of calls. The game continues on . Do I have a pregame classroom session and explain some of the advantage/disadvantage theory or what. I want to let them play but I don't know what to say to these coaches about not calling everything that occurs cause I really do ned to get this game done by midnight or the Varsity refs are gonna be really p#$$#ed of at me. LOL

So any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

I think the best - albeit perhaps not the most helpful - advice is to use your judgement. :) From reading your post, I think you're doing the right thing. I ref a few 5th and 6th grade level games and I have a son who plays at that level. When I've had a coach complain, I've explained myself (quickly and in the course of the game), and that worked. If it doesn't, you may need to use the "T". I haven't used a T at this level, but I've seen it done and it was warranted.

For example, I just had a 6th grade girls game where Coach A is saying "3 seconds, 3 seconds..." My partner and I have already talked about it and are telling the young ladies (who don't have the ball) "get out, get out" whenever possible. Then A1 holds the ball for about 5 seconds in the lane and my partner calls 3 seconds. Coach A tells me we have to call that both ways. I replied, "Coach, we're looking both ways. Being lost in the lane and holding the ball while you're in there are two different things." By rule was the coach right? Yes, there were a ton of 3 second violations in the game. But at that level specifically, I'm using my judgement on calling it. (About 1 minute later I got a 3 seconds on B1 who was holding the ball in the lane. Last 3 seconds call of the game.) We didn't hear from Coach A any more.

On the other hand, PLEASE don't ignore violations / rules that clearly give one team an advantage. An example of this is when Team A (5th grade boys) fights there way back into the game after being down by about 10 in the second half. They tie the game with 3 seconds left. Team B inbounds...dribbles...horn...ball still in hand...shot...it goes and the ref (whom I know) counts it. Team A is devastated, most of players crying in disbelief. Everyone knew it shouldn't have counted. Ref says to me later, "Yeah, I know it wasn't good. But the junior high girls were waiting to practice."

At the Frosh and JV level, I think you need to tighten up on some of the violations you would normally let go at the 5th and 6th grade level. These players are in high school, and should be reffed accordingly. In my opinion, the advantage/disadvantage philosophy deals more with contact between the offense and defense rather than with black and white rules violations.

Then you talk about the hand check. Obviously, we did not see the play. You say the player played through the contact therefore there was no advantage gained by the defense. Maybe, maybe not.

The handcheck slows the offensive player so the defender does not get "beat" on a play. Did the offensive player break off his/her drive because of the hand check? Many guards drive the lane to create offensive opportunities for their teammates, not necessarily to shoot an open lay up. Maybe the offensive player saw and opening but by the time he/she "plays through" that opening had closed. These are all things to consider. Maybe that innocent little hand check you let go was not quite so innocent and actually gave the defense a big advantage.

Sometimes the contact really did not affect anything, but it probably does more often than not.

I go into every game the same way, I'm going to call the obvious and with everything else I'm using advantage/disadvantage.

What changes is, that it takes less to disadvantage at these lower level games.

ChessRef,

The questions that you are asking are the right ones. It shows that you are thinking critically about the calls you make and not just out there blindly blowing your whistle.

I rarely work a lower level game anymore, but last night my assignor called me to fill-in on a sophomore boys game. The skill level was very poor. My partner was very green and called an extremely tight game. It made for a long night. I had to call a little tighter than I like so that we weren't calling completely different games from each other. Not that big of a deal as we were consistent so both teams knew what to expect.

The coaches last night were whining a bit in the first quarter so as I ran past them I said, "we'll answer questions coaches, but please let us do the reffing." They seemed to understand that and backed off. There is a fine line between quick conversations with coaches and talking to them too much. You'll figure it out as you progress and you'll get better and better at handling the coaches.

The good news for you is that as you progess to higher levels, the talent level gets better and the coaches generally are better at letting us ref while they stick to coaching. Varsity games are the easiest to officiate. Keep it up.

Z

IMO, all lower level games would be best served having a running clock til the last 2 minutes of each half. Otherwise, some of these games take forever to play.

Keep in mind, some of these lower level coaches have already told those kids everything they can. If they gotta talk it's going to be to the refs. Communicate with them. Help talk them thru the game. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't. If you're going to make it to the V level, you've gotta handle the F/JV coaches to get there. There are some really good people coaching at that level and they don't get any of the glory like having a full gym, name in the paper, etc. They also have to deal with parents who still don't understand the pecking order and want their kid to play more. Even though they couldn't throw the ball into the ocean with a wind to their back and no defense.

I pickup some of those games and I think that many of them were recently frustraited by officials who seemed to not care or were oblivious to the action on the floor. Once they see that you are not one of the "lazys", they can go back to coaching their team.

Don't call a bunch of game interupters that have no bearing on the outcome. Stick with advantage/disadvantage unless something is blatent.

3. Coach is not correct. If you judge no advantage then it's incidental contact, so say "Incidental contact, Coach," and move on.

I try to work all of my high school (v and non-v) pretty close to the same. I look at the non-varsity high school games as a place where players learn the game. If you are not enforcing the rules as you would in a varsity game, how can we expect them to understand how to play at that level. For example, last night I worked a Freshman g/b doubleheader. In both games we were shooting the double bonus early in the second quarter. During halftime, the coaches explained what was being called, and the only reason we had bonus free throws in the second half of either game was because of the score dictating a fouling situation. I just feel that at the high school level, they should be playing by the rules. Obviously there is some advantage/disadvantage called especially if you have a couple of really, really bad teams, but I try to stay on the same page as when I work varsity.

Chess Ref,

Advantage/Disadvantage is an important concept in basketball officiating, and I try to be consistent with my foul calls regardless of the level, but it can come into play - as Blindzebra intimated, contact that may not create a disadvantage at a higher level could definitely do so at a lower level where the players are not yet capable of playing through the contact. Therefore with respect to fouls/incidental contact, lower level games may need to be called tighter at times than higher level games would be.

With violations it can be almost the opposite & this is where you might cut them a little slack at lower levels (GS & maybe some MS). Think back to some of the ball handling discussions we had on volleyball - same principle applies. As the age/level of play increases, so does the "height of the bar" the players skills must meet. By the time they hit HS there shouldn't be any allowance.

Part of our job is to keep the game flowing as smoothly as possible. You have to call the obvious, but in marginal situations, the proper use of the advantage/disadvantage concept is a big part of making that work.

I disagree. I will try to say this delicately - some 8th grade games are easier to ref than some varsity games. Some coaches fail to tell their players that when A1 has the ball you can't just go up and grab it. Meanwhile A1 allows them to grab it. Multiply this by 100 and factor in the failed attempts by both players and there you have it: a game that is not easier to officiate.

Tomegun,

You lost me. If A1 has the ball, why can't another player grab it? You must have left something out here.

Z

OK, on some levels, players will play defense when their opponent has the ball. On other levels, players think that no matter what, they can just go and start grabbing for the ball. On this level there is a high rate of success for this action.

Do you understand? ;)

I guess. I still think 99% of varsity games are easier to officiate than 99% of 8th grade games. In general, the higher level games have better flow and coaches and participants with a better understanding. You also generally have better partners on higher level games which also makes it easier.

Z

OK, let me clearer. I don't mean any offense to anyone.

What game is easier to officiate, a freshman boys game or a varsity girls game? IMO, many girls aren't taught the fundamentals of the game. They don't know that they have to play D instead of just running up and reaching for the ball. The player with the ball doesn't know how to protect the ball so we end up deciding if we have a foul or a held ball. We all know there are many more held balls in a girls' game.
The flip side of this is there is a girls' coach in Vegas that is going for her 4th or 5th straight state title. She teaches her girls on a whole different level and it shows. She has a player named Italy that started as freshman and she can flat out play. I know she was taught the game the right way and she just breezes through games because of it. That is one of many examples.

This is the reason why when you work higher level ball you get more satisfaction out of your officiating. Despite what anyone says here there is nothing you are going to say that will make most of these coaches happy. If the coaches were that good or trained, they would not be coaching this level. Think about it for a second, coaches at these levels put in a lot of time coaching, get paid less and deal with more crap from parents that immediately think their kid is going to be the next great thing. Many of the kids that play lower level ball will never play again and the coach will get frustrated and quit or they will get promoted when the other coaches either quit or leave on their own.

Case in point the games I worked yesterday. I worked a double header Freshman Tournament and I cannot think of any real complaint all 4 coaches had. There was one coach that asked a question and after I gave my explanation, he never said another word to me the rest of the night. I called nothing different than any other game. I called the game the best way I knew how and we had many sequences where nothing was called where you could make an argument something should have been called. Not a significant word out of either coach about anything. It was clear that these coaches understood their role and did not sweat every call or they had officials that T’d them up in the past and they learned their lesson. Either way there was not a big problem the entire night. Coaches get it or they do not get it. All you can do is answer their questions and give them an explanation. All you can do is control what you do and only what you say. Coaches have to understand what is going on and either accepts your explanation and behaves appropriately. If they do not act in a sportsmanlike manner, then they are taking a chance that some official will pull their card. If they role the dice, they just might crap out.

Peace

No offense taken Tomegun - I ref both boys and girls. Maybe I should have said that in general, a boys varsity game is easier to officiate than a boys 8th grade game and a girls varsity game is easier to officiate than a girls 8th grade game. I now understand what you were saying.

Z

No wonder you did not get it. :rolleyes:

Peace

Tomegun, I think you are going a tad apples and oranges here.

I've have seen plenty of cases where a well coached girls frosh team is far easier to officiate than a poorly coached
boys varsity team.

Every level and sex, has different challenges. Coaching and school size also plays a role.

I think the point is, and I agree, that while the game is faster and getting into position becomes more difficult, varsity players are farther along than the lower levels in running offenses and defenses.

The game has better flow. Plays can be more easily anticipated, so getting the good look becomes easier. There are far fewer times where I need to instruct a player in what they did wrong. Coaches are more used to short communications and don't tend to dwell on one call as long.

Some of us work in states where girls and boys play the same season, and we are required to work both.

Some choose to only do the girls, and that is okay.

Those that feel they are too good to work girls and turn back these games, don't usually see any boys games come state tournament time.;)

I work in a state where they both play at the same time and I work the games the assigners give me.
If the difference between boys and girls would have been specifically stated I wouldn't have made my statement. Since it was generalized I don't think my statement was apples and oranges. When specified, I would agree that the games are easier to officiate the higher you go.

Well, some states only play one or the other on certain nights. Some states tried that same night crap and it did not work. For example a conference tried the Girl's first and Boy's second formula. No one would show up for the Girl's games and everyone would show up for the Boy's games. So they changed the order and had Boy's games first and the Girl's games second. Then everyone showed up for the Boy's game and would empty the gym for the Girl's games.

Also, some states have playoffs going on at completely different times. If you want to work both, it is not very likely. You better choose if you want to go deep into the playoffs. You cannot be at two places at the same time. In some states it is not an issue of being too good; it is an issue of not being able to work both. Also, the more experienced and better officials work Boy's basketball. They will let anyone in my state work a Girl's game. In my second year of officiating I had 40 varsity girl's games without pursuing them.


BTW.......my comments were a joke. ;)

Peace

No question-the higher the level-the better the basketball-the fewer instances real judgement needs to be used-the easier the officiating. Whenever I have a lower level game I find it amazing how Coach A sees/vents about every violation by Team B but somehow doesn't notice any violations by Team A.

There is proof that they really WILL let anyone work them! :D

Z

I agree. That is why I do not work them anymore. ;) Boy's basketball all the way. I see you still work girl’s basketball. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.

Peace

Around here, lots of us work both boys and girls, including several of us rated at the top of both associations. I have never had a complex about working girls games even though I have heard a couple refs who are not secure enough with themselves to do it.

I have friends who have daughters and they like to see the best officials on their games too.

I am glad I am not in an area where it is looked down upon for top officials to work girls games too. That seems so 19th century.

Z

Z,

Take the stick out of your butt. I am just playing with you. I am having a little fun because you love to throw the insults my way all the time. Further more I do not care what all other people do. We all do not work in the same system and in my state you would likely not work a lot of both. Why, because the coaches and assignors do not want to see the same kind of game called. Whether you like it or not girl's games are expected to be called with less contact. When you let a lot of contact go, the coaches (both male and female coaches) go ballistic. If you are always blowing the whistle in a Boy's game the coaches there go ballistic.

I worked with a guy last night in a two man varsity Boy's game with an officials that only works about 5-7 Varsity Boy's games in a year (in his words). He did a fine job, but admitted that he had never called a GT or BI call in his career because he did very few boys’ games to begin with. He had a call that was close and he talked about how surprised he was that he might have to make a GT call. He did fine and I will work with him anytime. His comment just goes to show that everyone cannot work both. You have to be able to look at places in Boy's games that you will not have in a Girl's game. If everyone wanted to see officials work both genders, then you would see the NBA and WNBA work both leagues. You would definitely see Division 1 conferences use officials to work both the Men's and Women's tournaments. You would also see the same rules between both genders in NCAA basketball and pro basketball. The reality is you do not. So I understand that you are offended (that was my intention btw because it is so easy to offend you) that someone question your ability based on someone who has never seen you work. I do know that whether it is the 20th Century or the 21st Century basketball is not seen as the same game.

I also not telling you what I think it is, I am telling you what I know it is. I do know that everywhere I have been or talked to official, officials with less experience and proven ability tend to work more of the girl's games and the long time veterans or the up and coming stars tend to work the Boy's games. This might not apply to you, but you would probably have to change that philosophy if you moved. Take it or leave it.

Peace

Ruts statements might not be true everywhere, but I know for a fact they are true in Arizona, Mississippi, Nevada, Virginia, Washington D.C. and Maryland. Rut will add Illinois, so we are already over 10% correct for the USA! :D

I never said this applied to every part of the country (I know Tommy is not saying that, just want to make that clear). High School officiating it a completely different animal than College and pro officiating. There are fewer officials to fill more slots. There are over 300 D1 Basketball programs. There are over 700 High Schools in the state of Illinois. In many cases they need officials to work both at the HS level. I can tell you that they do not assign playoff games (everyone plays in our state) to many officials that work both.

Peace

Not true at all in Arizona, I should know since I live there.;)

We get our games from the the regional assignor. Boys and girls play the same nights, against the same schools...home and away...so you get what you are assigned.

Turn backs are frowned upon.

Everyone works both. Some of us will work 75-80% boys games, but we still get assigned girls games and are expected to work them.

What do turn backs have to do with this issue?

Of course turn backs are frowned upon. That seems to be the case everywhere. No one here is just turning back games. You work for who you want to work for. If you do not want to work for them, you do not give them information to have them hire you. If I do not want to work for someone, I do not go to their camp or accept games from them. Or you choose to work one or the other side because an assignor is not going to give a "girl's official" games. We are independent contractor here. No one can make us do anything.

Peace

I can adjust. It's not that hard. I must be amazing. A legend in my own mind. :D

Z

It is not about adjustment, it is about preference. If you like doing both, knock yourself out. When I watch sports, choose an ice cream to each or go to a particular restaurant to spend my money, I go where I want to go. It is called life. In life we have many choices and not working Girl's basketball is a choice I decided to make long time ago and I am happy with that choice.

Peace

Once again you miss the point.

We register with one organization.

We do not solicit games, we cannot choose boys or girls games.

So those that feel girls game are beneath them, turn them back at their own risk.

Of course we all know in the great state of Illinois only the good officials work boys.:rolleyes:

You are right I did miss your point.

We do not solicit games either. What is your point to say that? We can belong to as many associations we want to or none at all if we choose to. Associations are only there for training, not assigning purposes.

We work for assignors not associations. Assignors usually look for newer officials to work for them through camps or they go to meetings looking for people that might want to work for them.

I guess it sucks to be you.

Peace

The part that I was talking about is how boys and girls are assigned. I started officiating in Arizona and unless there was a big change, the boys games are considered to be officiated by the better officials. I will call my friend that still lives in the Phoenix area to see if this has been changed.