Foul During AP Throw-In

[Sven]

Here's the situation that occurred tonight in a boys' varsity game (NFHS rules):

Less than 5 seconds left in the second quarter -- held ball called. Arrow pointing to A's basket.

During the throw-in (while ball is at A1's disposal), a foul is called on A2 prior to the bonus. B's ball at spot of foul.

Arrow is not switched. Still pointing to A's basket. Ball is put in play by B and time expires in first half.

After replaying the scenario and some discussion with the scorekeepers, the floor officials are unsure about the proper arrow direction but will look up in the rule book during half time...

They ruled that the arrow should be switched. B's ball to start the third quarter. I believe this was a mistake on the grounds that a foul by the throw-in team during the throw-in (ie. before it has ended) does not cause the throw-in team to lose the arrow.

Looking for confirmation and a rule or case book citation. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

Sven

[Back In The Saddle]

By rule, I believe you are right. The text seems pretty unambiguous, but I don't have my case book handy.

Rule 6-4
ART. 5 . . . The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow.

[Ref Daddy]

LOSS OF ARROW
6.4.5 SITUATION A: Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation. RULING: B's ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B's basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
LOSS OF ARROW
6.4.5 SITUATION A: Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation. RULING: B's ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B's basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

That's the case -- but you highlighted teh wrong part. THe play in question was a foul, not a violation, so you should have highlighted "the possession arrow is not reversed" in the comment.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally posted by Sven
Here's the situation that occurred tonight in a boys' varsity game (NFHS rules):

Less than 5 seconds left in the second quarter -- held ball called. Arrow pointing to A's basket.

During the throw-in (while ball is at A1's disposal), a foul is called on A2 prior to the bonus. B's ball at spot of foul.

Arrow is not switched. Still pointing to A's basket. Ball is put in play by B and time expires in first half.

After replaying the scenario and some discussion with the scorekeepers, the floor officials are unsure about the proper arrow direction but will look up in the rule book during half time...

They ruled that the arrow should be switched. B's ball to start the third quarter. I believe this was a mistake on the grounds that a foul by the throw-in team during the throw-in (ie. before it has ended) does not cause the throw-in team to lose the arrow.

Looking for confirmation and a rule or case book citation. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

Sven,

You are correct on your belief if the play unfolded as you described. But, I would like to know how close were you when the ruling was made? The reason I ask is maybe that only "flipped" the arrow to match the direction that Team B would be going to begin the 2nd half? Of course, that would not match the play as you described it. It's hard to understand how they could look this up at halftime and return with this misinterpretation????

Sven

[Sven]

Originally posted by Sven
Here's the situation that occurred tonight in a boys' varsity game (NFHS rules):

Less than 5 seconds left in the second quarter -- held ball called. Arrow pointing to A's basket.

During the throw-in (while ball is at A1's disposal), a foul is called on A2 prior to the bonus. B's ball at spot of foul.

Arrow is not switched. Still pointing to A's basket. Ball is put in play by B and time expires in first half.

After replaying the scenario and some discussion with the scorekeepers, the floor officials are unsure about the proper arrow direction but will look up in the rule book during half time...

They ruled that the arrow should be switched. B's ball to start the third quarter. I believe this was a mistake on the grounds that a foul by the throw-in team during the throw-in (ie. before it has ended) does not cause the throw-in team to lose the arrow.

Looking for confirmation and a rule or case book citation. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

Sven,

You are correct on your belief if the play unfolded as you described. But, I would like to know how close were you when the ruling was made? The reason I ask is maybe that only "flipped" the arrow to match the direction that Team B would be going to begin the 2nd half? Of course, that would not match the play as you described it. It's hard to understand how they could look this up at halftime and return with this misinterpretation????

I was very close, as I was the official scorekeeper. I knew the correct interpretation of the situation and did not switch the arrow. The floor officials were brought into the mix because the scorekeeper for Team B was sitting next to me at the table (as is customary in our neck of the woods) and he brought it to the officials' attention. Not his job clearly, but keep in mind that I am also an employee of the school whose team (A) would benefit from the arrow remaining pointed to A's basket.

I'll accept that the floor officials' probably know this. They don't know me, and they also don't know for certain that when I'm acting in the capacity of scorekeeper, I'm as disinterested as they in the outcome of the game. I just want to get it right.

I politely did what I could to assist the floor officials and recapped the sequence of events originally described. I also stated that a foul by the throw-in team during the throw-in does not cause that team to lose the arrow. They said, "Okay that's your side." They then turned to the gentleman sitting next to me -- call him the assistant scorekeeper -- and said to him, "What do you have to say?" He explained his view, which indicated immediately that he didn't know the correct application of the rule.



And to clarify, you are correct in that the arrow was not literally 'switched' to start the third quarter. The floor officials told me they'd "looked it up" during half time and that the arrow should point to Team B's basket. Since we hadn't switched the direction at half time, it was still pointing the same way; now in the direction of Team B.

With all due respect, I told them that I believed they had misapplied the rule, but I, of course, complied with their wishes.

Having been an official (floor and table) for twenty years and knowing the rule cold, should I have done anything differently?

(I already asked my wife and she said, "Yes, next time, just keep your mouth shut!")

Sven

[Nevadaref]

You did a fine job. You tried to assist without insisting. You are a table official and your role is to assist the game officials.

2-1-2 . . . The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.


If the game officials are going to go look up the rule at halftime and still boot it, then they need more help than you can provide.

The guy who should have kept his mouth closed, at least to the officials is the other scorekeeper. He is not the official scorer and is not listed as an assistant to the game officials. His role is basically as a team statistician for the visitors. If he has an issue, he needs to bring it the attention of his team's head coach. The head coach can then make the request of a time-out at the table to question the direction of the AP arrow.
That is how it should have been handled.