Hard Foul or Intentional

[SmokeEater]

I am interested to hear others opinions about distinguishing between a hard foul or if the foul should be called Intentional. I had a couple of instances this weekend where the coach asked if the call should have been intentional. NCAA rules, Boys 14 yrs old, district level ball. Very intense and competitive teams. This level would be considered equivalent to High school JV in the States.
First the defender jumped in the air to try and block a pass near mid court, as he landed the offense stepped forward. The defender did not make an attempt to avoid the other player and hit him quite hard. I called the foul but did not see it as an intentional. Second instance was Player was driving to the hoop for a layup, defender jumps to make a play on the ball but bodies the offense. Foul called. As the play continues, the defense apparently continues with his momentum to drive the offense into the basket supports. I was trail and was not in a position to actually see the very end of the play.

My opinion, hard foul should be called in each instance. The second would have constituted an ejection for intent to injure had I seen the actual act. Any comments, remember I am not asking if I made right or wrong call, just where do others draw the line.

[IREFU2]

This is how I see intentionals -

1. If excessive contact is made during a shot with no play on the ball at all, I will call an intentional.

2. If, off ball a player is holding another player to keep him from getting to the ball or gain an advantage, I will call an intentional foul.

3. And of course, if a player is pushed from behind during a layup or anythig that can cause serious injury, I will call an intentional.

That is in line with the rules, so that how I see them.

[Chess Ref]

IREFU2- I agree with with 1 & 3 but I am a little confused by #2. If a player is holding isn't it just that ,holding. What other reason would a player hold other than to gain an advantage ?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SmokeEater
I am interested to hear others opinions about distinguishing between a hard foul or if the foul should be called Intentional.

There is NO such thing as a hard foul ouside the NBA. If there is excessive physical contact, in the official's opinion, then it should be called either an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul. End of story. Allowing any player to put an opponent into a basket support through excessive contact is just wrong. Jmo but anyone that allows these so-called hard fouls to happen is gonna end up having a whole buncha trouble in a game sometime.

Sorry, but I just hate hearing an official say "Oh, that was just a hard foul". It's usually a cop-out for not having the nads to call an intentional or flagrant foul. Jmo.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
IREFU2- I agree with with 1 & 3 but I am a little confused by #2. If a player is holding isn't it just that ,holding. What other reason would a player hold other than to gain an advantage ?

I have seen players actually holding another player to keep them from getting to a specific spot from time to time or actually pushing them out of the way. I have called it maybe once or twice in my career and it was warranted. It is certainly out of the normal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
IREFU2- I agree with with 1 & 3 but I am a little confused by #2. If a player is holding isn't it just that ,holding. What other reason would a player hold other than to gain an advantage ?

If you read POE #3 on intentional fouls at the back of the rule book, it might help your confusion.

The POE sez that an intentional foul is grabbing or holding a player from behind or away from the ball at anytime during the game.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If you read POE #3 on intentional fouls at the back of the rule book, it might help your confusion.

The POE sez that an intentional foul is grabbing or holding a player from behind or away from the ball at anytime during the game.

I am not confused, I dont think???? LOL!!!

[Chess Ref]

I understand the first two bullet points. I also understand the grabbing/holding from behind.
The away from the ball is what I want to talk about.Player A (offense) Player B (defense). A is say at free throw line , player B is between A and basket. A makes a cut is held by B before he gets behind B . Thats an intentional foul ? Then when would we have a holding foul ?

[IREFU2]

I think that was one of the test questions, I am checking to make sure.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by IREFU2
I think that was one of the test questions, I am checking to make sure.

Question #27 -

If a foul is committed to neutralize an opponents obvious advantageous position, its an intentional foul (True)

See rule 4-19-3

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by IREFU2
This is how I see intentionals -

1. If excessive contact is made during a shot with no play on the ball at all, I will call an intentional.

2. If, off ball a player is holding another player to keep him from getting to the ball or gain an advantage, I will call an intentional foul.

3. And of course, if a player is pushed from behind during a layup or anythig that can cause serious injury, I will call an intentional.

That is in line with the rules, so that how I see them.

By NFHS rules #1 is incorrect. You can play the ball and still cause excessive contact, thus drawing an intentional foul.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by blindzebra

By NFHS rules #1 is incorrect. You can play the ball and still cause excessive contact, thus drawing an intentional foul.

Thanks, I believe that was a given though.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by SmokeEater
First the defender jumped in the air to try and block a pass near mid court, as he landed the offense stepped forward. The defender did not make an attempt to avoid the other player and hit him quite hard. I called the foul but did not see it as an intentional.

I don't understand. How is this a foul on an airborne player who is returning to the floor when the opponent obtained position after the player was airborne? How is his supposed to avoid the opponent? Why is the opponent, an offensive player, taking this position to begin with?

[Lotto]

Originally posted by IREFU2

1. If excessive contact is made during a shot with no play on the ball at all, I will call an intentional.

I think this conflates two separate principles with regard to calling intentional fouls. When the ball is live, any contact (excessive or not) made with no play on the ball or player is an intentional personal foul. And any excessive contact (even when playing the ball or a player) is an intentional personal foul.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Lotto

I think this conflates two separate principles with regard to calling intentional fouls. When the ball is live, any contact (excessive or not) made with no play on the ball or player is an intentional personal foul. And any excessive contact (even when playing the ball or a player) is an intentional personal foul.

I totally agree with you on this, but I have seen excessive contact making a play for the ball and no intentional called. I guess the calling official would have to determine if the contact was excessive or not.