NFHS and NCAA - Case play references if possible please.

Sitch: A1 has the ball dribbling in the BC being guarded by B1. New T has a 10 sec count.

I've noticed that sometimes the trail picks up a 5 second count as soon as A1 & B1 cross the division line. Is this because legal guarding position was established in the BC and that "status" stays with them until they are separated by 6 feet?

Same topic - What is your opinion on situations where YOU pick up a closely guarded. Example: I am probably guilty of not putting a count on when B is 6 feet away but by rule, it's 6 feet. IMHO, nobody is closely guarded at 6 feet and I see my peers call it at more like 3.

I also notice that sometimes you can have a dribbling situation coming into your primary and you have no idea if legal guarding position was ever established. I suppose glancing at my P, if he doesnt have a count on that guarded dribble, I should NOT pick one up.

Am I just thinking too much on this?

I'll give you NFHS cites. I think that the NCAA mens rules are similar, but I'm too lazy to look 'em up. NCAA Womens? I dunno. :)

1) To have a closely guarded count, the defender must first obtain a LGP as per R4-23-2. That LGP rule doesn't specify <b>where</b> you have to obtain it; iow, the defender can establish his LGP either in the front or backcourt. After establishing LGP, the defender can then establish and maintain a closely guarded position by staying within 6' of the player with the ball as per R4-23-1, and at the same time also meet the provisions of R4-23-3. There is no closely guarded count in the backcourt- as per R9-10-1a. If the defender established LGP in his opponent's backcourt and is also in a closely-guarded position on that opponent when the opponent enters the front court, then the 5-second count will start immediately. The case book play is 9.10.1SitA.

2) Rule sez 6 feet. Not many officials have a count at 6 feet though if the defender isn't <b>aggressively</b> defending- or trying to, I think. I think the purpose and intent of the rule is to reward a defender for playing <b>defense</b>, not just hanging around in front of the dribbler to kinda half-assedly keep him outside. The best way to call this one imo is to <b>talk</b> to your peers in your area, and try to have everybody call it uniformly.

3)The partner who starts the count should try and maintain it. It's harder than hell imo to figure out where the count is if you didn't start it. Quick look at your partner. If your partner keeps his count going, let him finish it. If your partner doesn't have a count, start your's if it's applicable.

Just one old guy's opinion.

LGP is not required. He only need meet the definition of guarding, 4-23-1, and be within 6 feet.

And if you're making him be closer than 6', then you're wrong.

Are you saying that the defender doesn't have to establish an <b>initial</b> LGP before meeting the "closely guarded" definitions? Or am I misunderstanding you again?

LGP must be established initially.

Last years guide had it as a POE.

Quote:

3)The partner who starts the count should try and maintain it. It's harder than hell imo to figure out where the count is if you didn't start it. Quick look at your partner. If your partner keeps his count going, let him finish it. If your partner doesn't have a count, start your's if it's applicable. Just one old guy's opinion.

JR - Thanks for the references. I agree with your thoughts thats it's hard to put a count on for a defender doing nothing other than standing 5' 11" away from the A1.

On 3, I was saying that IF A1 comes into my primary say from T to C and 1 ) T does not have a count on and 2 ) I have no idea if LFP was ever established, I really shouldnt have a count unless B1 get the chance to meet the req of LGP. Agreed?

Another curve ball here....You have a count, A1 dribbling w/ ball at the elbow. At your 4 count, he drives as if to start a layup. Suspend the count right? What if he then passes? Immediate 5 because you suspended the count?

I know this stuff sounds basic. I understand the rule, what I am looking for here is a concensus on how the rule is applied in practice.

If A1 does not get head and shoulders past the defender's torso, the count continues.

Quote:

If A1 does not get head and shoulders past the defender's torso, the count continues.

TY BZ. Good to review this stuff from time to time.

This is good stuff - I'm going to review last years rulebook and read the POE as it is quite detailed.

I'm saying that the rule book says nothing about meeting the definition of LGP before a count begins. If I, as a defender, pick up a dribbler while moving and maintain 6' or less, he's closely guarded. It makes no difference whether I ever was facing him with both feet on the floor at the same time or not. I can pick him up on the run and still have a CG count started.

That's what I'm saying.

I haven't reviewed what the POE said last year but I do remember there being a lot of discussion about. I'm simply baseing what I've said on what's in the rule book and case book.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 27th, 2005 at 12:16 AM]

Just looked at the POE it says "It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position" under the "When to start." section of the Closely Guarded POE.

2004-2005 POE

1. Closely guarded

A. When to start

Last line of paragraph one:

It should be emphasized that the defensive player MUST OBTAIN A LEGAL GUARDING POSITION.

Guess those rules aren't so clear after all, huh.;)

p.s. It also does not include during a screen under when to stop a count in that POE.:D

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 27th, 2005 at 12:20 AM]

So you're saying in the example that I cite above, since LGP was never established, the defender be guarding a dribbler and can be within 6' for 20 seconds but we aren't supposed to count?

Sorry but it's not in the rules, BZ. If it is, please cite the reference. It doesn't say LGP must be obtained first. And it doesn't say the count continues when the defender is screened and is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

Let me add that there's no such thing as an "illegal guarding position." :) But until last year's POE, nothing has ever been written that said LGP was required for a CG count. If there was, I can't find it. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? :)

I'm done. I'm simply not interested in these long drawn out arguments anymore.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 27th, 2005 at 01:05 AM]

I'm saying exactly what was said IN THE 2004-2005 RULE BOOK.

I've been saying over two forums that the rule is vague, and you have been busting my cherries about it, and now you are saying that the POE FROM THE FREAKING RULE BOOK is not in the rules.

Okay.:rolleyes:

Yes, it is vague. On that, we can agree.

Good night.

I'm saying that the rule book says nothing about meeting the definition of LGP before a count begins. If I, as a defender, pick up a dribbler while moving and maintain 6' or less, he's closely guarded. <font color = red>It makes no difference whether I ever was facing him with both feet on the floor at the same time or not</font>. I can pick him up on the run and still have a CG count started.

[/B][/QUOTE]Can't agree. See case book play 9.10.1SitC:

Team A has the ball in it's own frontcourt. B1 stands within 6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line.
<b>RULING:</b> In 5 seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, <font color = red>as soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the floor, facing the opponent</font>, no other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant.

LGP must be established by the defender before you can begin a count.

I don't totally disagree with what you're saying. But prior to last season's POE, the NFHS never stated that LGP was required before a closely guarded count could begin. In the siutaiton that I described, I'm starting a count. So I'll just leave it at that.

The case play JR posted was also in the 1998-99 CB, so last year WAS NOT the first time it was mentioned.

LGP is required to begin a count, so why not leave it at that, since it is the rule.;)

NCAAW -

No 10 second backcourt count and you get a 5 second closely gaurded count on a held ball in the BC.

Plus the closely guarded distance in NCAAW is 3'

Yep, exactly!!!!! I wish they would change that across the board. 3 feet seems more reasonable than 6.

I like the 3' rule but I think it should be held and / or dribbling especially w/ no shot clock in place. I also think you should be able to run over to defend a player and not have to get LGP before a count starts. Would make things a lot easier on us because then the only decision is how close the defender is. Well, I guess you should still be facing at least.

This is just theoretical.....ever see that Movie, "Stuck on You"? It's about conjoined twin brothers. In the movie, they are on the same baseball and hockey teams. What if they played basketball and were on opposite teams? It is possible. If brother A1 had the ball, could brother B1 ever get legal guarding position if he were attached to his side? And..if he were to get LGP, would the 5-second count start as soon as A1 touched the ball in the frontcourt? This would make for many messy situations? Think about Free Throw Violations, OOB plays and Player Control Fouls! Anything in the casebook about conjoined twins on opposite teams?

How would conjoined twins attend separate schools? :confused:

Carefully.

That's a valid point, however, a Rec League situation is still a viable possibility.

When a dribbler comes into my area with a defender guarding within 6', it's easy to tell whether they're facing or not. THen all that needs to be determined is whether they ever had two feet on the ground at the same time. Usually, if they're sliding in the "Stay Low!!" bent knees position, I pretty much assume that at some point their feet were both touching at the same time. If the defender is just running alongside, it's a little harder to determine, but even then, I think if she is paying any attention to the dribbler at all, a count could be safely started.

The real question for me is how to determine 6'. Is it toe to toe? I've seen defenders that were tall enough that with a little bending forward, and arms reaching, they could be 6' plus away, and still be in excellent guarding position. Should I count or not?

Luckily, an old Ref taught me this trick. The Maple Flooring is always 2-1/4" wide. So when you see that A1 and B1 are cross-grain...count the boards between them. 72"/2.25" = 32 boards or less. Granted you have to be careful in Nevada where the dry humidity can cause undue shrinkage in hardwoods.