Three or Four Classes?---IHSA Officials comment please

[JRutledge]

We have 8 Classes for Football. All other sports have just two.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JRutledge
We have 8 Classes for Football. All other sports have just two.

Peace

Some sports have only one class, Jeff. I forget the specific requirement, but if fewer than, say, 1000 schools participate in a sport, it has only one class.

[JRutledge]

Sorry, I usually am not thinking of Water Polo and Bowling when talking about sports.

Peace

[SeanFitzRef]

JRut,

If not mistaken, you work football in IL as well, right? Has that opened up more opportunities for you or others to get downstate for one of the many championship games? I think the selection process for BBall officials to work championship games will go pretty much unchanged, as long as they continue to use the "Top 15" list for selection. If you get the games on merit, maybe some of the officials on the bottom of the list get the shot at the lower level games, but the were still rated among the highest in the state.

[eyezen]

My two cents is that IL should keep what they have going. In fact there is a pretty good contigent in MO especially on the St Louis side that would love to see MO model IL's system because we feel it in the end it makes for much better basketball.

Ours is so watered down to five classes and has what roughly half the population of IL?

Of course it will never happen but makes for a good conversation on the fanboards over here.

One thing that does not make sense to me though in IL is you go all the way thru the state playoffs which is IMO is pretty rigourous by most state HS standards (hence why I like it)and then you get to the final 8 and you play the 1/4s one day and then play the semi's AND finals on the next day? Can anyone in IL explain that? Is it a travel thing? Shouldn't they just take the final 4 to state? or again a travel thing?

One other thing is that IL seems to promote its basketball more than MO. I remember when I was a kid where I grew up we had a big antennae and we could turn it north and get TV out of Quincy, mainly for Football Cardinals games as they were never sold out, but back on topic, one other thing we could get was IL HS basketball, I think it was like the sectional maybe supersectional out of Peoria. Here in MO the only TV cast that I know of is the 5a finals.

Edit: for sp and content




[Edited by eyezen on Nov 25th, 2005 at 01:47 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
JRut,

If not mistaken, you work football in IL as well, right? Has that opened up more opportunities for you or others to get downstate for one of the many championship games? I think the selection process for BBall officials to work championship games will go pretty much unchanged, as long as they continue to use the "Top 15" list for selection. If you get the games on merit, maybe some of the officials on the bottom of the list get the shot at the lower level games, but the were still rated among the highest in the state.

Football is a different animal all together. All championship games are played on the same weekend. That would not be the case if they went to a 3 or a 4 class system. If you look at there PowerPoint Presentation, the 8 teams during the state finals weekend would semi-final teams and then the championship games on Saturday. So they would have the same number of officials working the games. The main thing that would change is all those officials would actually work a championship game.

Also I am not sure what the Top 15 list has to do with who works the playoffs. There are more factors to who works the playoffs than who is on those Top 15 lists.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by eyezen
One thing that does not make sense to me though in IL is you go all the way thru the state playoffs which is IMO is pretty rigourous by most state HS standards (hence why I like it)and then you get to the final 8 and you play the 1/4s one day and then play the semi's AND finals on the next day? Can anyone in IL explain that? Is it a travel thing? Shouldn't they just take the final 4 to state? or again a travel thing?

Edit: for sp

[Edited by eyezen on Nov 25th, 2005 at 01:35 PM]

I have no idea. The only explanation I can think of is that the schools do not want to have their kids out of school more than 1 day. Also they avoid Sunday so no one can say they are playing on a religious day. I would agree that they should somehow figure out how to break that up and play the semi-finals and championship on separate days.

Peace

[tjones1]

I still haven't had time to read this yet. Too many things to do over break I guess. Hopefully I'll get to read it next week when things settle back down.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
California is going to have seven levels next year. I haven't spent much time looking at it yet. An area I have a concern with is the privates vs publics in playoffs. It bothers me that the privates, with their small populations get to beat up on the publics of similar population. In Girls VB right now DIV 5 is dominated by small Christian schools. They should just have a private schools championships. They get to recruit. Some publics may recruit but it is not as prevalent as the privates. In BB the D4/D5 levels have become the private school championships. So if you a smaller school you make it to the state tourney , run into a "similar" sized school-who just happens to have 3 players getting D1 schloarship offers. Your little school hasn't had a D1 player in any sport in years. So all of you Oak Hill Academy fans-I am not impressed. Also De la sally fans-you got to recruit and come up with a Norcal allstar team-not impressed. End of rant and Rave.....

This is tired old complaint. Everytime some school does well over time, they're accused of recuiting (esp. if it's a private school). It's even thrown at public schools that repeatedly do well.

What seems to be forgotton is that there are far more private schools that don't do well.

Additionally, many of these high-performing private schools (and public schools) petition to play up to the next classs (or even higher).

Does any one ever consider that when a team does well it will naturally draw good players. Being a private school or a public school in an open enrollement district just means that they don't have boundaries to adhere too...making transfers easier.


If it were such an unfair situation, the privates would win a lot more of the championships. The one most accused of recruiting here does win championships but not at a frequency that is suspect when considered without emotion.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


This is tired old complaint. Everytime some school does well over time, they're accused of recuiting (esp. if it's a private school). It's even thrown at public schools that repeatedly do well.

What seems to be forgotton is that there are far more private schools that don't do well.

Additionally, many of these high-performing private schools (and public schools) petition to play up to the next classs (or even higher).

Does any one ever consider that when a team does well it will naturally draw good players. Being a private school or a public school in an open enrollement district just means that they don't have boundaries to adhere too...making transfers easier.


If it were such an unfair situation, the privates would win a lot more of the championships. The one most accused of recruiting here does win championships but not at a frequency that is suspect when considered without emotion.

There is no such thing as "open enrollment" in school districts here. If you go to a public school you have to go to schools in your district. Even in some districts you might have 4 or 5 different high schools and you cannot just go to whatever school you like. Your enrollment in a public school is usually based on where the district lines are drawn based on your address. As it relates to IHSA enrollment rules, you might be allowed to enroll to a school, but you will not be able to play sports if you violate certain rules for transferring. I can attend any private school I like, but I might not be able to play sports.

Peace

[Chess Ref]

TJjones.
Example . Private girls school enrollment say 600 , public school enrollment say 600. Both girls teams compete at same level but the privates recruit and also have the advantage of having 2x as many girls as the publics.

Just because its a tired old complaint doesn't make it any less of a legimate complaint.
The private schools in my area dominate the lower divisions-no if , ands or buts about it. I haven't ever heard of one pleading to move up. why would that be ?????
In our neck of the woods those schools that recruit win...privates get to recruit and offer "tuition waivers". Nice term for we will pay you to come here. Heck even the "charter" schools are starting the recruiting. 2nd year of existence and we have one working on sectional titles already in Girls and Boys BB.

[oc]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
TJjones.
Example . Private girls school enrollment say 600 , public school enrollment say 600. Both girls teams compete at same level but the privates recruit and also have the advantage of having 2x as many girls as the publics.

Have they looked into adjusting schools classes based on gender enrollment? i.e. all girls schools of 600 would be considered to have 1200 students?

[JRutledge]

There is already a provision for schools that are single gender schools to be considered in a higher class. For example St. Joseph High School where Isiah Thomas attended and was featured in the movie Hoop Dreams. That school was an all-boy's school with around 400 students. They were always considered a Class AA school (big schools) and they played won a State Title in 1999. So there were already policies in place to deal with private schools like you suggested. The problem is you have schools like Driscoll Catholic and Montini Catholic that are not gender specific but have only about 400 to 500 studentsÂ’ total. According to the current system these schools are Class A schools by pure enrollment. Then this year IHSA came up with a private school multiplier that brought a lawsuit with many Cook County private schools to hold off the new policy. The discussion of more classes has come out of this debate that has been going on for 20+ years.

Peace

[JRutledge]

http:///sports/highschool/cs-051128i...hool-headlines

IHSA competitive balance proposal headed to a vote
The Associated Press

November 28, 2005, 6:28 PM CST

Illinois high schools will decide over the next month whether to adopt new rules to level the playing field between public schools and private schools that critics argue are winning a disproportionate share of state sports titles.

An Illinois High School Association commission Monday approved a vote on a proposal that would promote competitive balance by multiplying the enrollment of private schools by a factor of 1.65 for purposes of placing them into classes for state championship tournaments.

Voting by the IHSA's 751 member schools begins Tuesday and runs through Dec. 28, said Marty Hickman, executive director of the Bloomington-based organization. He said results will be announced Dec. 29.

The so-called multiplier would apply to all private schools, unlike a rule adopted by the IHSA in March that only imposed a multiplier on private schools with at least 450 students. The IHSA agreed to let that rule expire this month to settle a Cook County lawsuit filed in September by 37 private schools.

Several of those schools were bumped from Class A to Class AA under the rule. They argued the multiplier penalizes teams for success and puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

The settlement required a binding vote by members to settle the ongoing dispute between private schools, which can draw student-athletes from up to 30 miles away, and public schools, with their tighter, locked-in geographic boundaries.

Under the settlement, schools submitted nearly a dozen new proposals to the IHSA ranging from separate tournaments for public and private schools to banning multipliers altogether. The proposal headed for a vote was chosen by the IHSA's Legislative Commission, comprised of 35 principals and athletic directors from around the state.

If approved, Hickman said the new multiplier would take effect in February, in time for basketball and other spring sports tournaments. He said he doubts any new multiplier proposals would surface soon if it fails.

"I think the board is more than willing to let the membership resolve this through a vote," Hickman said.

Private school officials said they, too, are pleased that members -- not just the IHSA board -- will settle the dispute.

"At least we got it to a vote and that's what we were asking for from the beginning. However it comes out, we'll live with it," said Dennis Litteken, principal at Breese Mater Dei.

Still, Litteken says the latest multiplier proposal is unfair because it applies to students who live blocks from his school and not just those from miles away. He said private schools should not be penalized for drawing students who live in their local public school district.

Dan Sharp, athletic director at 12-time state football champion Joliet Catholic, predicted the multiplier will pass because public schools account for more than 80 percent of the IHSA's members.

While the latest proposal would have the same impact on Joliet Catholic as the IHSA's old rule, Sharp fears the new multiplier could hurt smaller private schools because schools with fewer than 450 students will be affected.

Hickman said the new multiplier would have little more impact than the old one in two-class sports such as basketball, but could move some schools up in the IHSA's eight-class football tournament.

He said the multiplier would have more impact if the IHSA expands its current two-class sports. An advisory vote is scheduled over the next month on adding classes in some sports, including four classes for boys and girls basketball.
Copyright © 2005, The Associated Press

[eyezen]

Missouri - single gender schools are doubled and then the multiplier (1.35??) gets added (I don't think there's any single gender public schools?) for enrollment purposes.

The multiplier is what's controversial in MO andI'm sure in states across the nation that use it or contemplating it.

Doubling the enrollment of single gender schools is common sense, I'm surprised to hear it's not the case everywhere.

[Edited by eyezen on Nov 28th, 2005 at 11:11 PM]