last night in the uk/iowa game uk was pressing and the "c" blew the whistle pointed at the shot clock and held up 10 fingers and called the 10 second count!!! Is that something that normally happens at that level????

"Normally", no. But it's great that somebody was aware of where the clock was. Great pick-up by the C.

i was thinking in small college games that the shot clock always don't start when it supposed to or is started early, so we can't always go by that, but i think at that level they have the little switches on them so they can start it when the ball comes in so they know when it gets down to 25 anyone can call it...i guess that is what was going on their!!! thanks

Is starting the count different in the NCAA than it is in HS? In HS we start the count when control is established. Does it start on the touch in NCAA?

In NCAA, there is Team Control during a throw-in. So, as soon as A1 touches the ball inbounds, the 10-second count starts.

Take a closer look at what Bob wrote, maybe something new will jump out at you.

having a bad day!!! can't read for nothing!! Very sorry Bob!!!

Ok, I'm confused. I have never seen a C call the 10-sec. count; I have always considered that the T's call, since they have the count. In NFHS, isn't there even something in the book about not using the clock for the count, and that it should be the official's count alone? Is this a different mechanic in NCAA? Do you use the shot clock to help determine a 10-sec. violation? What if the shot clock started early and the T is at "8" in his count? (Granted, I'm a little more familiar with NCAA-W, so I don't pay attention to those trivial little items like 10-second counts... ;) )

So, can we just "pretend" to count...and go with the shot clock...and call the violation @ 25?

I'm guessing the crew "discussed" the 10-second call after the game!

Well, M(do you mind if I call you by your first name?), it's not really a bad idea even in FED sometimes if you're able to use the clock for help on a 10-second count-- if the count started simultaneously with the clock starting and you've got the clock in line with what you're trying to keep an eye on out there. Usually doesn't work out that nicely though, especially if you get some defensive pressure. Don't wanna be watching the clock while the dribbler's getting raped, do we?

You're probably thinking of the NFHS case book play where the the 10-second count and the clock both started simultaneously with a back-court throw-in and 12 seconds left in a quarter, and the horn then went off with the team with the ball still in the backcourt. Well, as the old saying goes, that's tough DeNucci's. (:D). There's no rule saying that you can re-set the clock in that one just because the official screwed up his 10-second count.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:33 PM]

"The Trail has the count, Coach, not me."

I dunno if "pretend" is the right word but I make damn sure the shot clock is not at 26 when I'm about to call a 10 second violation. Of course you're not always going to be at 10 when the shot clock hits 25, but if I started my 10 second count at the same time the shot clock started then we'll have a whistle at 25, not 23.

Quote:

I'm guessing the crew "discussed" the 10-second call after the game!

Or maybe they discussed it during pregame?

Well, J(I hope you don't mind; we're getting so familiar with each other), I agree we can glance at the clock to keep our count accurate. I actually tried this once - I timed ten different refs counting to 10, and they were all between 12-18 seconds. No one was too fast. So we probably need to be more aware of how fast (or slow) we count.

But I'm surprised the C still came out with this call. Wouldn't the T be giving the visible count? How would this be different than, say, you're up to 4 on your throw-in count, and you partner blows the whistle for the violation, because you counted too slow? I guess that's why I'm asking - is this correct under NCAA mechanics? Or was the C maybe "calling outside his area", bailing out the T because they were busy with the pressure? Is using the shot clock more acceptable for the count, thereby enabling the C to make the call if necessary?

Is the C over-ruling the Trail's count? Shouldn't the C blow the whistle and go to the Trail and tell him that he has definite knowledge of the count, and then ask if the Trail wants to change his count and call the violation? What if the Trail is damn sure of his count, too, and doesn't want to call the violation? What do we do, thumb-wrestle for it in the center circle?[/sarcasm]

The C knows for sure the 10 seconds have expired. No discussion; just make the call.

Just like when your partner puts up the touchdown signal and you saw the shooter's toe on the line. Same exact thing. Especially when you discuss both of them in pre-game.

But I'm surprised the C still came out with this call. Wouldn't the T be giving the visible count? <font color = red>How would this be different than, say, you're up to 4 on your throw-in count, and you partner blows the whistle for the violation, because you counted too slow?</font> I guess that's why I'm asking - is this correct under NCAA mechanics? Or was the C maybe "calling outside his area", bailing out the T because they were busy with the pressure? Is using the shot clock more acceptable for the count, thereby enabling the C to make the call if necessary? [/B][/QUOTE]It's my understanding too that the trail usually has the count in nCAA 3-man mechanics. As Dan said, maybe they pre-gamed the C watching the shot clock if he didn't have anything else in his primary to really worry about. Not really that bad an idea either imo.

It would be different from a visual throw-in count in that you have the accuracy of the shot clock to precisely let you know when the 10 seconds is up. On a visual count, like a throw-in count, both you and your partner would be guessing or estimating as to when the 5 second count actually elapsed.

Btw, if my partner blew a violation whistle because I was too slow on my visual throw-in count, I would ask him if he could accurately count to two- just before I kicked him in the nuts. :eek:

It's just wrong.
 

<I>Sitch: B gets a rebound and A gets it back with momentary control, then B knocks the ball outa A's hand and starts to bring the ball upcourt.</I>

Center doesn't see loss of possession, or doesn't see B fumble the ball before control.
Center blows the whistle cuz he's at 10 while Trail, <U>always on the play</U>, is at 8.

Centers have no bidness counting to 10.
mick

Apples and oranges....

Sigh.

Is there a difference between "make the initial call" and "over-rule the initial call", Chuck? :rolleyes:

Re: It's just wrong.
 

In that case, shouldn't there be a correction of the shot clock? If there was momentary control by A then back to B, the clock should have been reset.

Re: Re: It's just wrong.
 

YU.P., yU.P. and the Center should see that shouldn't he?
But he still shouldn't be counting. :)
mick

Re: It's just wrong.
 

[/B][/QUOTE]

<I>Sitch: B gets a rebound and A gets it back with momentary control, then B knocks the ball outa A's hand and starts to bring the ball upcourt.</I>

Center doesn't see loss of possession, or doesn't see B fumble the ball before control.
Center blows the whistle cuz he's at 10 while Trail, <U>always on the play</U>, is at 8.

Centers have no bidness counting to 10.
mick [/B][/QUOTE]

Center doesn't ever count, we were talking about the shot clock showing 10 seconds have passed, so he gets it!!! And if the possession was changed the shot clock would of been reset, then when A gets it back after the momentary possession the clock would reset again!! then when it gets to 25 someone better have a whistle!

Re: Re: It's just wrong.
 

<I>Sitch: B gets a rebound and A gets it back with momentary control, then B knocks the ball outa A's hand and starts to bring the ball upcourt.</I>

Center doesn't see loss of possession, or doesn't see B fumble the ball before control.
Center blows the whistle cuz he's at 10 while Trail, <U>always on the play</U>, is at 8.

Centers have no bidness counting to 10.
mick [/QUOTE]

Center doesn't ever count, we were talking about the shot clock showing 10 seconds have passed, so he gets it!!! And if the possession was changed the shot clock would of been reset, then when A gets it back after the momentary possession the clock would reset again!! then when it gets to 25 someone better have a whistle! [/QUOTE]

jritchie,
Granted that the NCAA provides a procedure for the Trail to have primary responsibilty and that [from Note] <I>the Center may assume responsibility</I>, I refuse to believe it's a good mechanic.
So why is it in the book? I think it is there merely to give "lip service" of following the philosophy of getting the call right.
From observation, I think I will personally get to <B>10</B> (<I>I practice that count too much.</I>) a full 2-3 seconds ahead of most partners [I seem to see about a 1.2-1.3 second count by many officials]. Since I am pretty sure that I will get there first, regardless, I will not show up my partner... until I get to 15.
mick

Re: Re: Re: It's just wrong.
 

From observation, I think that most officials counts are even slower than you give them credit for. I see many approaching 2 seconds/chop with the typical being more like 1.5

When I call a 10 or 5 count, I often get comments of "wow that was fast". I've timed myself on counts and I can, at rest, usually be within 1 second over a full minute. I regularly check myself against the clock in games when the pressure permits and find my count a little slow in games...usually 6 seconds for a 5 count. If I'm perceived as fast and I measure slow, the others must be really slow.