How many officials actually call 3-seconds according to the rule? Who applies it only when it provides a real advantage? If A5 is camped out in the lane for 10 seconds, but never touches the ball, do you waste the whistle?

Got into a discussion about this over the weekend, and was criticized (if you want to call it that) for how I use/apply this rule. I give verbal warnings to "get out, get moving", but I don't penalize unless the player in question actually receives the ball. This is the way most assignors that I work for advise to handle the 3-second call, so as not to interrupt the game flow. Just wondering how others handle this.

There are other advantages that can be gained, and I watch for those too. Screening is a great example. I will let it go six or seven, maybe even eight as long as there's no obvious advantage, but after that, I'll often call it, just to bust up the play. Also, I'll call it right away, if the player is doing the lifting the foot dodge. Don't want her to think that's legal.

Hypothetically, 10 seconds in the lane should draw a whistle. I usually try my best to chase guys out or get a captain to chase them out (1st Q) but I will not embarrase myself or my crew by letting someone grow roots in there.

Don't know what to tell you about this. There seems to be a general disdain for making this call amongst officials. I called this the other night in an NAIA game on a team who was up 20 in the first half...and the player I called it on was in the lane at least 10 seconds! At halftime, one of the officials who was on the game before me and stayed to watch a half of our game said, "That is probably the first 3-second call this conference has seen in years."

I took that as he didn't really like the call. I HARDLY ever make the call myself. That being said, I still believe this call should be made if necessary.

Now...how one defines "necessary" is another matter.

I see no problem with talking to players and getting them out of the lane, especially if it's not affecting the play at all. My usual way of addressing this is to say, "get out of the lane, get out of the lane," and if they're not at least moving out by the second time I've said it, I call the violation. Also, almost no coach, fans, or players understand that with article 3 included, 3 seconds is not a literal 3 seconds.

On the humorous side of this...I filled in a JH date a few seasons ago with a pretty big official in the area (a tournament official for quite a few years). In the B game a fan is all over the guy about calling 3 seconds. The fan at one point screams out "how long are you going to let her stay in the lane!" My partner calls his time. Walks over to the guy and says, "In a 7th grade B game, until the quarter runs out." Not anything I'd do or reccommend anyone els do, but it almost made me swallow my whistle I was laughing so hard. We didn't hear from the "3 seconds" guy for the rest of the game.

When a helpful Coach yells,

"How about 3 seconds, Ref?

I stiffen my body and kind of bristle all over. I might even go into several involuntary eye tics. I start to drag my left leg like Igor. There can be drool involved....if the ball is still in the backcourt or is being tapped.

Then when the ball changes pocession, I wait until it crosses 1/2 court. I will have been hyper-ventilating for a few seconds by this time. No matter where I'm at, I keep my eyes glued on his Center's feet. Silently, I say a prayer and promise God that if he gives me this one Call...I'll never be a bad Ref, again.

Works sometimes......

What dodge is that again?

I let players be in for a few secs (5-6), then I start counting with my hand, showing that I*m counting, usually they get moving then, if not, I call the violation.
With younger players (on low baskets and such) I tend to call "watch the 3-seconds" or "get moving" and they'll mvoe. There's no need to call 3-secs on the small ones unless they stay in there forever, but the older they get, the harder I call it. With our oldest girls I don't warn either, I sikmply call it, but they're so good that thye stay out automaticly anyway :P so it's not many calls anyway.

Some Refs let you "dodge" a 3-second call. Works like this:

A1 has been in the paint for 3 seconds while the ball is in Team Control in the front court. Knowing he/she is in trouble, the player stops and looks their wrist in wide-eye amasement. They then slap the side of their head with the other hand - palm open - and procede to leave the lane in obvious embarrassment.

LOL!

I sometimes hear them exclaim "My my my my where did the time GO!!???"

Interesting, because I have worked wtih 'Newbies' (1 or 2 years) that call it often, until they are 'broken' of that habit. I have worked with the 'over-officious' (new board word!!) types that swear they are awesome refs, and call it every chance they get. I have worked with college and CBA officials that don't call it at all unless a player or coach gets under their skin. Like I posted earlier, I call it only when there is a definite advantage gained. Posting up on the block, backing defender down without ball, in at least 5 seconds, then the ball is set up on the same side and a pass is forced in. After I have given the verbal warning a couple of times.

What I really hate is the 'A$$istant coaches' on the sidelines (fans & parents) that miss a really good basketball game because they only see players standing in the paint!! LOL!

I don't understand how you can't call it if the player has not gotten out after a second warning. You are just telling them that you will not call it and that they can stay in there all day. They may not get the ball but many times they will get advantageous rebounding position.

True, but when the shot goes up, the 3-second count is eliminated. Also, advantageous position can be gained from a push, elbow, etc.

I know the 3 second count stops when a shot is taken but the does not eliminate the advantageous position gained while in the paint for 10 seconds before the shot was taken. Also, wouldn't you call a foul on a push, elbow, ect?

Ok I'll take the other side of the debate. A player is in the lane for 5 second---- no advantage---- His teamate now takes a shot------We now have a BIG advantage----- No one is waving the shot off because the 3 second violation occurred before the shot. And you certainly will not be waving it during the shot...
Give them the warning--- then call the violation---- called early---- the problem is taken care of. Called forthe first time in the third quarter and you'll have a riot on your hand
Stew in VA

Without reading the thread beyond your statement
 

I would note that there is an inherent advantage gained by hanging out in the lane. For one thing, someone has to guard you, more or less, so you're affecting the way the defense can play.

Sorry for the delayed reply....

Ofcourse I would call that foul, either way. Here in lies the 'dilemma'...
Pregame with partner, discussed exact situation of 3 seconds calls. I rarely like to use them, partner almost never. Players not standing in the middle of the lane, maybe on the block, high at the top of the lane near free throw line. at least two defenders between player and basket. Where is the advantage? A lot of teams play zone in this league.

Last night I worked a jamboree for an assignor that I really want to work for in my area. He was there watching and giving his take on what we were doing right and wrong. One of the things mentioned to me was that I called a 3 second violation without talking to the player first. He was completely right and 9 out of 10 times I would have said something before the whistle, but for some reason, last night I didn't.

Re: Without reading the thread beyond your statement
 

I would note that there is an inherent advantage gained by hanging out in the lane. For one thing, someone has to guard you, more or less, so you're affecting the way the defense can play.
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Well put.

I believe in preventative officiating on this one.

I also believe the level of play is a factor.

Warn them once, warn them twice. Could be two warnings on one possession if the camping is blatant. "Out of the lane, 4-2." "4-2, out of there."

I played post. I heard what the ref said. These kids hear it too. Two warnings is enough.

Third time if they are in there for 5 seconds (aka a real real long 3 seconds) its a whistle. It is a huge advantage, if for nothing other than rebounding position, to be in the lane even if the player doesnt touch the ball.

Dont ever visibly count 3 seconds, in my humble opinion.

That said, this should not be your marquee call of the night. You dont want to go home saying "boy, I made the greatest 3 second call tonite." You call it becuase after a few fair warnings the player MADE you call it.

I dont think you can just let it go (unless you are at real low levels of play like bad junior high). Even girls C (Freshman). I think you warn, warn, call. You are getting them ready for the next level.

I address this in pre-game. I tell players they'll hear us chirping at them to move in and out of the lane, in hopes that we don't blow a whistle every 4 1/2 seconds. On the other hand, I don't like letting someone camp in there only to get the ball for an easy shot when they overstayed their welcome. Just be consistent!

Two points to answer two points...

1) In the area where I ref, the higher up you go in levels, the less it's called. I've seen it called more on the Freshman girls level and jr high than I do in varsity, JV, or college games.

2) A lot of offenses are now incorporating the three point shot more and more, hence longer rebounds. Less advantage than you think. Broke into the varsity ranks last year, and was told before one of my first games of the season - pretty specifically, I might add - to "avoid the 3-seconds, or buy the first 3 rounds after the game". Said in joking tone, but the message was pretty simple. Avoid 'game interrupting calls' where possible.

I agree its called less the higher you go, but I also think it happens less blatently the higher you go. I dont see V boys camp in the key the same way Fr Girls or Boys do. I like to think a part of that is because we whistle the 8 seconds in the key at the lower level. You do see people at higher levels push the envelope of being in there too long but it isnt as bad (in my humble opinion) at the higher levels. So I think you might have causation reversed on that one. It isnt that it is called less but is happening the same. I think it is happening less at those higher levels.

And I agree with you about call the 3 buy three rounds. :) I dont think that means dont call it. It means lets not have cheesy technical 3 second calls. This is probably the best example of a violation NOT to call strictly by the book. See the "Tower Principle" post. :)

I think we are saying the same thing. But I still think there is a place for the call. Let it call itself.

This does become a consistency issue, however. That's why this discussion is helpful and important.

One night, the crew calls it tight, the next night, the different crew doesn't see things the same way. Drives a coach nuts!

Yeah, Buck, but a lot depends on the crew you work with, and if it is discussed in pregame. Different assignors, different philosophies. Inner city games (CPS) assignors want us to call it less, worry more about the contact fouls and cleaning up the game. Southern suburbs, more structured offenses, worry less about contact but more technical in-game calls.

BTW, if the 3-second count is wiped out by the try, how can you justify calling 3-seconds when a shot goes up, even if it gives a player a rebounding advantage? I often let it go when I know a shot is going up, but if there is an extra pass... TWEET!