If A1 is driving to the basket, can B1 set-up directly underneath the basket and take a charge?

No rule prohibits that location.

Any player is entitled to any spot on the floor, provided s/he legally gets to that spot first.

So the answer to your question is that, in theory, a player can take a charge under the basket. In practice, however, many officials won't call it.

Is this one of those non-existent rules like over-the-back?

[Edited by djskinn on Nov 18th, 2005 at 02:02 PM]

See Chuck's response. :)

Had this situation the other night and did not call a charge. Coach later asked if we were using "college rules" for that situation?

<b>Many</b> officials? Is that one of them IAABO thingys?

Why wouldn't anyone -except someone doing NCAA wimmen- call a charge under the basket if the defender had LGP and an airborne shooter knocked him into the third row? :confused:

There's degrees of contact. I don't think that you can make up a blanket rule to cover all of those different degrees. Jmo.

Many, many.

Nope. It's one of them "philosophy" things.

Because many -- yes, many -- officials subscribe to the philosophy that you can't defend the basket if you are directly under the basket. Therefore, it's not a legitimate defensive postition. Therefore, the defender shouldn't be "rewarded" by getting the charge call.

But you already knew all that.

Dang, he beat me to it. I was going to throw in my two cents (now only worth about 3/4), that in NCAA-W, in the Appendix under "Legal Defense", it says, "A defender who establishes a position directly under the cylinder or behind the backboard when a dribbler becomes an airborne shooter is not in legal guarding position, regardless if she got to the spot first. Exception: When a dribbler takes a path parallel with the endline, the defender's position directly under the cylinder or behind the backboard is a legal guarding position." So, iow, in a "north-south" drive, the defender can't draw the charge under the basket, but could in an "east-west" drive.

So, I guess it's not a rules myth, depending on the rules set you are using. I agree with Chuck that there are many (ok, more than a few) who use this philosophy in NFHS games as well.

Good points guys, but I am still wonder how to call it? Is there a rule stating that a position under the basket isn't a legal guarding posion. How should we call it??

Nate, as I said in my first post, in FED and NCAAM, by rule a player control foul should be called if the ballhandler (dribbler or shooter) contacts the defender in the torso and displaces the defender; even if the defender is directly under the basket.

You probably have to do what your assignor(s) tell you they want. But by rule it's a PC.

If you are doing a HS game, it's a PC foul (assuming the defnder had LGP and all that)...if doing an NCAA Women's game, it is either a no-call or a block based on their rule-set...if doing a NCAA Men's game, it's eiter a no-call or a PC foul based on their rules-set...if doing an NBA game, it's a block since they have the restraining circle...

Dang it - Munchkin #1 beat me to it!

No such call as over the back. That is a street ball term and as long as the defender is not hindering verticality, then he can be over the back. Now, on the back is a differnce story!

[Edited by IREFU2 on Nov 18th, 2005 at 01:56 PM]

Over the back is....
 

...really just coach- and fanspeak for "Our player, who was never really taught the proper fundamentals of boxing out, was just beaten badly for a rebound by a taller or more skilled opponent that out jumped him/her, so there had to be some sort of illegal activity involved because my child is a good player in our eyes."

Yes, I know and referred to it as a "non-existent rule."

[Edited by djskinn on Nov 18th, 2005 at 02:01 PM]

High School rules (and philosophy) are designed to keep play from getting too rough. An official who won't make this player-control call (college philosophy) is just asking for more out-of-control drives later in the game. Make a good charge call (even if the defender is standing under the basket) and players driving to the hoop will learn to stop and pass when they see a defender in their path.

Z

It is not always a block in the NBA if they are in the restraining circle. It depends on if the player was the primary defender or not or if the offensive player started in the lower defensive zone.

Shoot, Z! Shoot, Z!
I wasn't a scorer, but even I would stop and pop. :)
mick

There's a specific FED case on this somewhere in 10.

10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor....if B1 moves into the path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1.

Case book play 10.6.1SitC:

<i>B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1.
<b>RULING:</b> B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact occurs, the player-control foul cancels the goal...</i>

You left out the most important part of the ruling. If the defender had a legal guarding position, it's a player-control foul. If the defender didn't have LGP, it's a block.

You are 100% right Mick. I don't know what I was thinking. When I played, I never met a shot I didn't like and I thought I was in range when I crossed halfcourt. I'm either getting old or I've seen too many "pure" point guards lately. Maybe both.

Z