I am in my 8th year and have a pretty good understanding of the rules. I was working with a certified official on a girls varsity contest. He had made a double foul call on the two post players the ball was live at the top of the key. Since the rule change, and correct me if I am wrong, but the call should have been the ball goes back to offense and the poss arrow does not change.

He made the call looked at the poss arrow which was pointed to the offense gave the ball to the offense and changed the arrow. I told him that was not the correct call. He response to me was. I was wrong and when I become a certified official i would have a better understanding of the rules. Now I am standing next to the head coach for the team in control of the ball listening to him yell at me for not knowing the rules. Like a good official I covered for my partner who I knew was wrong. I tried to talk to him about this at halftime, but he just walked away. It made for a interesting second half and a cold shoulder after the game.

What is the correct call.. Now this guy has me second quessing myself.

Any suggestion on how to handle this in the future?

You are correct, possession is now POI, which in your case goes back to the offense. As for dealing with the partner, talking to him about the call was a good thing to do. Mention the rule change, but don't just say you're wrong. Since he would not change the call and doesn't know the rule, he may not be the senior official you think he is.

You had the right call- R4-36.

Next time, just do what you did. Bring it to the calling official's attention- where nobody can overhear your conversation. If he doesn't want to change his call, then there's nuthin' that you can do about it. If the coach *****es, just nod your head to acknowledge that you hear him but don't say a word. If the coach wants an explanation, tell him that you'll get your partner to give him one. After the game, don't bother getting into it with the guy. Just get outa there. Make sure that you report him to your assignor/commissioner however. Guys like him gotta be straightened out. They're dangerous to all of us.

It's interesting reading all of these type of posts recently...the "older" or "more experienced" or "veteran" official is always such an a-hole when the "younger" or "not certified" official runs in and tells him/her "Hey, you're wrong"...as one of those "older" (altho certainly not as old as SOME people on this board), "more experienced veteran" officials, let me give some advice to some of our younger compatriots - if you come running in and tell anyone "You're wrong", than that person is going to get defensive...the way to avoid these situations is to work on your delivery - talk to the partner the way you would like to be talked to..."Hey partner. can we discuss this one for a second. Isn't it a new rule this year that double fouls go to POI?" Make it a question rather than an accusation and see if maybe - just maybe - us a-hole older, more experienced, certified officials will start listening a little bit more...

OK, off my soap box. Yes you were right and partner was wrong...learn from the situation and try to handle it differently from now on...

You are correct.

The guy is an idiot.

If you have an assignor, make him aware of your partner's mistake AND his unwillingness to listen to you.

If your partner takes offense to you pursing the issue, SCREW HIM.

You're right about how to handle it, but my guess is that younger officials aren't as awful as it might look. Only the problem situations get posted here.

Or are you saying that you've been corrected by a newbie recently, and it didn't feel so great?

Or are you saying that you've been corrected by a newbie recently, and it didn't feel so great? [/B][/QUOTE]Yup, that's why Rocky got a little short with him.

Thank you all for your replies...I tried to be respectful to my partner. I did not tell him he was wrong. I approached the situation as a question to him. I told him, in this matter. wasn't this a rule change this year? They discussed it in length at the rules meeting. I understand that if the ball was in flight and you called the double foul then yes you would change the arrow, but not in this case. I hope I handled it correctly. I am just now getting into the Varsity rotation for both boys and girls and I don't need this. I know I will have him again as a partner, next time I hope it's a three person, and we can out vote him.

Did you do a pre-game? It does not sound like you did, because new rules changes are among the first things that should be discussed in a pre-game with any partner, but particularly with a new partner. And that goes double for the first games of the year -- when I make sure we are in agreement on each new rules change.

Having said that, there is no excuse for your partner's behavior. I have had rules disagreements with my partner, but they were always private -- either in the locker room or during a time out. If I had a partner who walked away from me at halftime, I would be sure to ask my assignor to find someone else as my partner next time.

Clay,

Here's Crow's Theory, men by their nature stay mentally about 17-1/2 all thru their lives. They don't change. Some older men bluff behind a false facade of experience and wisdom from age. Plus, they think that age excuses rudeness, ignorance and a bad attitude.

(For some reason, I find that Golf Course Starters are cut from this mold.)

My advice, never let an old jerk bluff you. Trust me, he was a jerk when he was young too. You vote? Pay taxes? You're as good as he is. I'm 54 and the correct way to respond in this case is to say,

"You might be right...let's check after the game to make sure."

If he's too ignorant and prideful to take this approach, you should be the one that gives him the cold shoulder.

Or, if you're like me.....mail him a copy of the Casebook Example C/0 your Assigner.

Nope...no corrections yet...and you know me well enough to know that I wouldn't respond that way if someone did correct me...however, over the last few weeks there have been a number of "bad older partner" situations posted here, and the common thread has seemed to be that the younger official "tells him he's wrong"...that's never gonna go over well, so thought I would post a little different response than "yep he's wrong so screw him"...

Funny you should ask that question...During our pre-game we were talking about double fouls and double false fouls. . I am not a big believer in double fouls since someone had to have the first contact, but that is just my style of officating.
We did not however talk about how we penalize those foul. I assumed that was a given. Shame, Shame ,Shame on me.

This question is only posed out of curiosity, nothing more.

You're now in the "varsity" rotation, yet you're not a certified official? In Missouri you would have to be certified by the state to work even a sanctioned JH/MS game much less a varsity game.

So I'm curious what state/league would this be in?

Wouldn't it take care of this problem if those older veteran officials would just get it right in the first place?
If they are sensitive about being corrected than don't be wrong.
Keeping up with the rules should be a lot easier than staying in shape! ;)

According to Clay's profile, he's from IL. In IL, "certified" is a level of official -- officials are either Registered, Recognized or Certified.

Officials must be Licensed (and, thus, at one of the levels above) to work games. Based on your comment, I'm guessing that MO's "Certified" = IL's "Licensed."

Thanks for the reply. That's interesting, I did not know that. Do you know how those levels are determined? Thanks.

Yes, I do know how those levels are determined. ;)

Assuming that you want to know ... It's based on experience, testing and ratings. After two years at one level, the official can test for the next (by taking the Pat2 exam) and getting a certain number of officials and coaches (6 total, with at least 2 of each, I think) to indicate that the official is capable of being at the next level.

More detail (and probably more accuracy) is at ihsa.org

I assume those levels go a long way towards high profile/playoff assigments? That's interesting, we have nothing of that sort across the river. Thanks for the info.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref

Quote:

Wouldn't it take care of this problem if those older veteran officials would just get it right in the first place? If they are sensitive about being corrected than don't be wrong. Keeping up with the rules should be a lot easier than staying in shape! ;)

Well duh...of course that would be best...but when that doesn't happen, do you honetly believe that coming in and telling your partner "You're wrong. This is how it should be" is better than the approach I encouraged CLAY to try???

Eyezen, you have to take the approach of the new rating system being implemented in Missouri. 1-5 discussed during the rules meeting. I believe it is the same concept.

Ok that makes some sense. I wondering then if once you obtained a certain status in IL that you're there for "life?"

Whereas in MO if you truely stunk it up one year and/or ran into a bunch of coaches who you didn't get along with and rated you poorly then your rating would go down.

I can see where both approaches have they're merits and both have they're pitfalls.

Thanks for the reply.

I wish they would standardize terminolgy between states, but I guess that'll only happen when I'm elected king. ;)

Bob's one smart fella - that's why he gets paid the big bucks. I might just add that once you are promoted to the next level, in order to stay there you must continue to pay your dues and pass the Part 1 (open book) exam every year, and attend a clinic once every 3 years. So, as long as you do that, you could stay at your level for life. As far as post-season, however, there are other factors that go into it as well, such as ratings from coaches and other officials, and Top 15 lists submitted by schools and official's associations. They also give priority to Certified officials. However, you could be a Certified (highest) level official, and not get any post-season games if you don't do well in the other areas. I have also seen Recognized (middle) level officials receive post-season assignments because they do well in the ratings. So, just being a Certified official doesn't necessarily make you one of the best officials.

The real discussion that needs to take place regarding the initial thread topic is EGO. Regardless of experience level, officials who have a big EGO are the really a concern. The EGO says: "I'm always right", "I don't need to do anything to improve", "I don't care what new information you give me - my decision is final", etc.

A persons EGO is what stops them from becoming a better official (whether thats playoff assignments, moving to a higher level, or simply being the best official you can be). EGO shows itself in the way we think, behave, treat others, and present ourselves.

When RockyRoad says that he is more apt to listen to a younger partner only if approached a certain way, that's EGO. If CLAY wants to change a partners call by saying "that's not the correct call", that's EGO. Don't get me wrong, EGO can be a good thing. It's just that when EGO takes over and is not controlled or moderated, it will cause trouble in any game.

BTW - the first thing I say in my pre-game as the R is: "Guys, tonight our philosophy is 'get the call right'. It doesn't matter who/where/when - let's make sure we 'get the call right'".

Just my two cents worth...........

I agree that ego can be a bad thing if it keeps you from learning and improving. But I disagree that either of your examples is ego.

In Rocky's case, I think it's just human nature to bristle when confronted so openly. I don't think it's the result of not wanting to improve, or of being unwilling to listen. I just think people in general become defensive when confronted openly. I think you would probably react similarly, and am pretty sure that I would too.

In CLAY's case, I think it's just a lack of tact. He was correct, without doubt, to try to get this call changed. The problem was simply in the approach.

JMO, as well :)

Just for the record, I did not say that I react that way. As a matter of fact, when I responded to Juulie I said that I don't respond that way...but thanks for telling me all about my ego anyway.

However, my original point is still valid - and even Chuck agreed with me...it's all in the presentation. When there's something odd in one of my games - WE discuss it and WE reach a decision together (quickly)...it's not a "You're wrong and I'm going to fix it" conversation.

I agree with both of the Munchkins also. It's always easier to talk somebody - anybody- into something if you don't piss them off first. Ego has nuthin' to do with it.

No, Rocky doesn't react that way. At least not when the other person is bigger. Which they always....