As the dribbler (A1) is going to the basket and begins his steps for a layup the ball comes into both hands. With the ball in both hands, A1 is fouled and takes his/her step(s) to complete the layup.

Is this basket good or is the foul on the floor?

What is the difference with continuation between NFHS, NCAA and the NBA?

This is a weakness among officials that I've heard several times this year during meetings (not my words, although I agree).

Speaking of step(s) to the basket, which foot is the pivot foot during a regular right-handed layup?

I have my own thoughts about this, I would like to see what others think.

COunt the basket. Gathering the ball in both hands is the start of the habitual throwing motion.

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What is the difference with continuation between NFHS, NCAA and the NBA?

NFHS and NCAA are the same. I've read (here) that the NBA is essentially the same.

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Speaking of step(s) to the basket, which foot is the pivot foot during a regular right-handed layup?

The left foot.

I'd say count the basket, if you determine the shooting motion has started. You can have two hands on the ball when starting the shooting motion for a jump shot. If fouled during a jump shot...with two hands on the ball...you would count the basket. I look at it the same for a lay up. Of course you can also have two hands on the ball and be holding or passing it. So, it depends on whether or not you deemed the shooting motion began.

For a right handed lay up isn't the right foot the pivot? I'm trying to visualize this...and don't you pick up the ball with the right foot on the floor...step and put your left down...lift your right / pivot foot...and finish the lay up?

Lay-ups

I Coach my kids this way and try to explain the Traveling Rule for a layup on the right side as such:

1. You almost always jump from your left foot to shoot a right-handed layup from the right side.

2. You want to pick up your dribble (both hands touch ball) with your right leg in the lead. If you pick up your dribble with both feet on the floor, your pivot foot will be your right foot as soon as you pick up your trailing foot (the left).

3. If you pick up your dribble with only the lead right foot touching the floor, it is your pivot foot as soon as the trailing left foot moves into the lead and touches. (I get the right foot as the pivot foot in both cases?)

4. In either case, you pick up yout right (pivot) foot as you you jump off your left foot and pass or shoot before returning to the floor.


The jumping off one foot, landing on two and jumping again is a great move to teach young kids as it gives them the ability to snake left or right when jumping off the two feet.

If Coach K. is looking for a good, high-paid Assistant.....I can be had.

Yes -- sorry. I meant the "other left foot". ;) No wonder I can't dance.

Probably depends on the player and on when the ball is gathered up, doesn't it?

The right foot is the pivot. You scared me for a minute Bob. :D

The NBA rule on continuation is the same. How many times have we heard comments when we have a continuation play and people think the NBA rule is different?

Also, if we agree (which we do) the this play should be a shooting foul, how many times do we see an official yelling, "on the floor, on the floor?" There are too many times a shooting foul should be called and it isn't. I'm guilty of this as well and need to make sure I see the play for what it really is.

Rainmaker, my question was based on a right-handed layup that would be considered "normal."

tomegun,
I have continuation on the last step-and-a-half. ...Dribbling, or on a post move.
Way too many times, I have seen the shot waved off.
And way, way too many times I have seen an official point at the floor.
mick

I would have to see this play for sure. The word continuation is not in the nfhs rule book, but continous shooting motion is. In high school and college I would have to see this play but the kid would have to be moving in an upward motion before I would give him the basket.

The NBA is the only group to have both the word continuation and continous shooting motion in their books as well as definitions for both. Continuation refers to gathering the ball, and continuous shooting motion is defined just like it is in the nfhs and ncaa.

OK, should I or shouldn't I? What the heck, I can't resist.

refTN, this is part of your problem. You need to see more plays instead of getting hung up on the words continuous and continuation! One of the most outspoken officials about this whole discussion is Joe Forte, who you will probably hear speak at a camp in the future for.........wait.........the SEC! I'm not trying to belittle you but I tried to describe what I'm talking about in such a way to take any doubt about what the shooter's (hint: he was a shooter) intentions were. Also, if the ball is in his hands and he is taking his/her step(s) toward the basket, what else are they going to do? We have had years of an error by ommission; the player was on the floor. Now, instructors and higher-level officials are saying there isn't a difference in the rules and if we are going to make an error, make an error of commission; give the shooter free-throws or a free-throw. The beginning of the shooting motion is the key here.

I just read your post again and noticed something else. What if the defender was playing D in such a way where the motion wasn't up but was delayed until the offensive play was in the air and forced to scoop the ball to the hoop under-handed? Are you going to NOT call it a shooting foul because the upward motion didn't happen?

I don't have my NBA rule book at work, but how does it say continuation refers to gathering the ball? I'm not saying it doesn't, I just would like to know the wording.

ALWAYS a shooting foul.

One to think on though...............

Your partner or partners during the game are CONSISTANTLY calling all same/similar situations " ON THE FLOOR!!".

Do you adjust, or make them adjust?

PRE-GAME....ahh, it works wonders :)

I would love to hear thoughts from others, though.

Savaahn Ty
" just a student of the game, always looking to improve"

ST,

Pre-game it right, and you have no problems, but.....

If I have to try to make that adjustment, I'm going to TRY to get my partner(s) on the same page as me, and call the play all the way through. To me a shooting motion is the same as a shot, but on this whistle you have to watch the result of the play. I have seen a lot of kids (mostly boys) go up in the shooting motion, then pass as they are fouled in the air. That extra split-second can save a lot of hassles later.

Here is what the NBA officials manual says on continuation:

Occurs when a player is clearly driving to the basket and after gathering the ball,[or ending the dribble] is fouled while attempting to complete this movement, he is to be rewarded with two shots if there is a miss of his shot.

If he can continue his move while being fouled after the gather and score a goal in the process, the goal is scored and a one additional free throw shot attempt is awarded to him.

In the NBA a player can be fouled as he has gathered the ball on a jump stop and while in the air coming down for the jump stop get fouled and then finish to the hoop. I don't think anybody in HS and college would let them do that.


This is what I mean by the upward shooting motion. If this kid in HS gets fouled after he has gathered the ball and is still on his right foot then proceeds to step with the left and finish the hoop, I believe by high school rule you cannot award this basket.

You'd be incorrect. The kid has started the foot and arm movements that lead to the shot.

So what if I determine that the foot and arm movements of a crossover dribble are in fact the movements that lead to a shot and the kid gets fouled on the crossover and then releases for the shot. Do I count it?

You believe wrong under both high school and NCAA rules.

Bob Jenkins gave the simplest and best answer above as to how the play is supposed to be called under NFHS and NCAA rules. He said <b>"Gathering the ball in both hands is the start of the habitual throwing motion"</b>. That's what you look for, that's the way it's supposed to be called (even in the ...wait for it...SEC :D), and that's the way that this play has been taught since I've been around.

Forget about "steps" by the shooter unless he travels. Look for the shooter grabbing the ball with both hands. That starts a "try" under all rulesets.

If the player gets fouled on the crossover, it's during the "dribble", isn't it? Don't try to overthink this call. The try starts when the dribble ends.

Dribbling movements are not shooting movements, even if they come right before shooting movements.

what about the jump stop foul I explained?

I agree with a non-shooting foul if the kid is landing. The shooting motion/movements don't start there.
mick

I don't have a clue what "traveling" is in the NBA. I also can't figure it out just by watching a game, mainly because "who" and "when" seems to apply to that call also in the NBA.

In your example, under NCAA and FED rules, you're <b>ending</b> your <b>dribble</b> or finishing catching a pass during that jump stop. You're not in the act of shooting during a jump stop, so any foul committed during that time is naturally a non-shooting foul. Once the jump stop stop ends with both feet on the floor, then any further shooting move to the basket is the start of the "try". This type of try usually coincides with going off both feet to shoot. In that case, after a jump stop, when you go up neither foot can then come back down before the ball leaves your hand on the shot, or it's traveling. There's no such concept of step with one foot and then off the pivot foot involved.

Good conversation. As pointed out by a few others, the steps really don't matter. What matters is the beginning of the shooting motion.
refTN, you are getting hung up on different rule sets when all the rules, at least the ones we use in the USA, are all the same. If you don't want to take anyone's word on this site, send an email to Joe Forte and ask him.
Maybe someone looks at this thread and begins to call this play correctly. That is what this should all be about.

We have had this discussion before. Bob's guidleine is as good as it gets. When a kid goes in for a layup and has picked up the ball, the kid has two choices Shoot or Pass. If they did not pass they were probably shooting.

You will never find an "upward motion" in the book. Continuous motion as mentioned is the habitual motion as part of a try or shot (or something close) What is the habitual motion? Picking up the ball on the drive.

The other aprt of the pet peeve of mine is "on the floor".. what does that mean? The foul was before the shot or it was not. Players can be on the floor and still shott..

Kelvin:
Ditto for being peeved about 'on the floor'.

My consistent response to officials who blow this call is
"Please don't tell me where but WHEN in the shooting motion the foul occurred"
Normally elicits a puzzled look.
Most officials who can tell the difference use the term "NO SHOT". Those who are verbalizing OTF are probably basing the award of shots on position rather than correctly using the definitions of continuous motion.

I've used "no shot" since my first year because I had an excellent trainer in my first officiating class. He went on to be executive director for IAABO. No matter what that group's interps are he was a fantasic clinician.
tomegun,
You might be interested to know that Vegas is currently teaching that the act of shooting starts when the player brings the ball up to his chest/chin. It's true!
It caused many problems for us last year when a certain very good official said that at the coaches clinic prior to last season, and then a few of us went out and called it by the book.

Nevada, after speaking to a couple of the guys this week, I'm not surprised by anything they are doing in Vegas. I wish them the best but there seem to be some things going wrong in Sin City!