A1 takes a shot at his basket. The ball rebounds such that after hitting the rim, it sails to the left of the rim, completely outside and left of the cylinder, and still above rim level.

B1 jumps to secure the rebound. While trying to secure the rebound, B1 accidentally taps the ball toward the basket.

The ball sails over the cylinder, still above the rim. The buzzer sounds and light goes off ending the period. The ball passes through the basket.

Is the basket good?


P.S. Team A down by 1 when the play starts.

yes its good
 

score 2 for the team whos basket that was -- as long as the contact happened before the buzzer the ball is live until it goes through the basket or hits the floor -- if a defensive player after the buzzer causes interference still score 2. just like a normal shot it doesnt matter who hit it last.

I disagree
 

The ball only stays live after the horn if there is a try for a goal, and B1's tapping of the ball towards A's goal is not a try. The ball is dead immediately when the horn sounds. There is no score.

Re: yes its good
 

rule references?

(only necessary for us rulebook officials. Others can just rely on common sense.)

I'll walk you through it, for the benefit of DeeCee also:
1) A1's shot or try ended when it sailed to the left i.e. it was certain that the try was unsuccessful. NFHS rule 4-41-4.

2) B1's tap isn't a try because it's <b>not</b> directed at <b>his</b> team's basket. Rule 4-41-2.

3) B1's tap was still in the air when the horn sounded. The ball now becomes dead, as per rule 6-7-6. You cannot score a goal if the ball isn't live, as per rule 5-1-1.

Ergo, no basket.

That covers it, rules wise. Same call under NCAA rules.

thanks
 

never knew that

Thanks, Jurassic and Lotto. That's how I interpreted the play also, BUT...

..this was NCAA game, refs counted the basket, Team A wins by 1.

Also, there was no monitor for review. It was a "bang-bang" play and very difficult to get right without review. I had to watch the replay several times to come to the no basket conclusion. You really needed the slow motion to see the touch by the defense vs. the end of game light vs. position of the ball.

Granted, as a ref, you always want to get this correct, but it was a tough play.

And I'm not trying to absolve the refs of all responsibility, but I think one of many lessons learned here is for the schools...have a courtside monitor if at all possible.

Was there any question as to who actually touched it?

That still may not matter. Even if the offense was the last to touch the ball, the goal still shouldn't count.

By rule touching a ball during rebounding action is not the same as a tap which we know is treated as the same as a try for goal in all cases other than the 3/10 of a second situation.

If the covering official didn't consider the offensive player's touching to be a tap (attempt to score), then the ball would still become dead when time expired.

No question at all about who touched the ball. There were no players on offense anywhere close. The defensive touch was very clear.

Not a smart play by the defender, but I suspect he wanted to secure the rebound to be sure no players on offense could make a final tap.

This is a good play to discuss. Great information.

Redref, don't hold your breath for schools to get monitors. I'm assuming this wasn't a D1 game, since they didn't have a monitor, and the school probably will not get one anytime soon.

Nevada, although you are right by the rules, I don't know if I agree with you. It could be hard to explain to a coach if the defender touched the ball. I would want it to count if I was the coach and we know most of them wouldn't know this rule. If the offense touches the ball I would see it as a tap and count it. If it is clear that the offense touched the ball, good luck with explaining this one.
How would this same play be handled if it wasn't at the end of the game but the rebounder was fouled?

Interesting part here is this was a D1 game. I've never understood why there isn't a monitor available at all games at this school. The school has 5-10 tv games each year and monitors are available for those.

Also, there's a D3 conference close by that is putting in monitors for this season.

If the ball is above the rim and just inches outside the cylinder when an offensive player touches the ball such that it goes back towards the basket, I'm going to consider that a tap without exception. 2 point if it goes in.

Nevada, this would be a tough sell, because I have seen, as I'm sure you have, several plays where a player is going up simply to retrieve an offensive rebound, and accidently knocks the ball into the basket. Everyone in the gym can see the player wasn't actually trying to shoot/tip/tap the ball in, but it does go in and the basket counts. Shouldn't matter if it is the first play of the game or the last.

JR,

Although I understand the rule references, this would mean that there is no possibility that the defense can score an "own goal", and there are provisions made for that in the rules. Rule 5.2.3 states "... if a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it is not credited to a player, but it is indicated as a footnote." This would state to me that there IS the possibility for Team B to 'score' a basket while going for a defensive rebound. In the situation described above, this would be a made basket for team A as the player from B was "trying" to secure the rebound, but never actually had control. The ball never hit the floor or any other object to cause the ball to be dead before it passed thru the cylinder. Therefore, count two points for team A.

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Nov 16th, 2005 at 04:31 PM]

Although I understand the rule references, this would mean that there is no possibility that the defense can score an "own goal", and there are provisions made for that in the rules. Rule 5.2.3 states "... if a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it is not credited to a player, but it is indicated as a footnote." This would state to me that there IS the possibility for Team B to 'score' a basket while going for a defensive rebound. In the situation described above, this would be a made basket for team A as the player from B was "trying" to secure the rebound, but never actually had control. <font color = red>>The ball never hit the floor or any other object to cause the ball to be dead before it passed thru the cylinder. Therefore, count two points for team A.</font>

[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, the rules references I gave <b>don't</b> tell you that you can't score an "own goal". They <b>do</b> tell you that you <b>can't</b> score an "own goal" with a <b>dead ball</b> though. Big difference. The case play that you are referring to isn't applicable because in that case play the ball remained live until it went through the basket. Apples and oranges iow.

In the play we're talking about, the ball became dead before it passed through the basket (not cylinder) because (1) time expired for the quarter as per R6-7-6 and (2) it wasn't a try as defined in R4-41-2 and therefore wasn't covered under EXCEPTION a of R6-7-6. That's why you <b>don't</b> count 2 points for A.

You misunderstand the rule references.

A goal is scored when a "live" ball passes through the goal.

As long as the ball is live, either team can cause a goal to be scored in either basket....it doesn't matter how it got there or what the intent was (except for a throwin). Scoring a goal, however, is NOT the same as a try. A "try" is an attempt to throw the ball into your own goal (not your opponents).

Normally, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. The ball remains live after the horn sounds if the ball has been released on a "try". Since a try is defined to be at your own goal, the defensive action that causes the ball to go through the goal is not a try and the ball becomes dead at the horn. Contact with the floor or other object is not a factor.

JR,

In this instance, Casebook 4.41.4 Sit B makes my case. Try is obviously no good, but deflects off another player from EITHER team and into the basket. Why is the ball dead in the situation described above? It wasn't in contact with any player, the floor, or out of bounds when the horn sounds. No whistle was blown to stop the play. Ball is in the air above the ring, then passes through as time expires. That is how I'm understanding the situation.

Camron, read yours after I typed this, but you both are right, in that it is not an actual 'try' when B deflects the rebound. But the ball is in flight prior to the horn. does it have to pass thru before the horn sounds?

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Nov 16th, 2005 at 05:10 PM]

Yes, it has to pass through before the horn sounds. That's exactly what rule 6-7-6 is telling you. R6-7-6 also applies to casebook play 4.41.4SitB. That case book play isn't applicable either because it references a "live" ball going through the basket. If the horn hadda went off before that "live" ball went through, that "live" ball woulda become dead immediately- because it wasn't a "try"- and therefore no basket woulda scored.

A goal is only made when a LIVE ball passes through or remains in the basket. (5-1-1)

The ball becomes DEAD when the horn sounds, unless a TRY is in flight (6-7-6, excp A)

In the play that started this thread, there wasn't a try, so the exception doesn't apply, so the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds, so the basket doesn't count.

In 4.41.4B, there was no horn so the ball didn't become dead, so points are scored (but note that only two points are scored because the three-=point try ended).

In 4.41.4A, the touching doesn't end the try, so the exception applies so points are scored.

See case 6.7.6A for an example where there is no try and time expires before the ball enters the basket. Althought the "method" of getting the ball into the basket is different between the case book and this thread, the effect is the same.

Thanks
 

Thanks for all the info, I stand corrected. Appreciate the input. I can now go and reconstruct my interpretation of these events in case I ever run into them in a "live" situation. :)

Here is the "live" situation, in case you don't see the other thread that I started without reading this one, unfortuantely.

http://www.davidcatalano.com/eklekto...zer_beater.htm

Seth Greenberg, the VA tech coach, was just on CSTV discussing this play. He said that his player, who is a freshman, when for the rebound and tipped it in. He couldn't fault him. It was a mistake, but not one made on purpose and the kid was hustling.

The coach gave no indication that he thinks the basket shouldn't have counted. He is blissfully unaware!

To answer a couple questions from the other thread that deals with this play...

- no there wasn't a monitor to review

- the play did start off a sideline throw-in, opposite the table

- the T official administered that throw-in right about mid-court

- the C official (table side right next to coach) scored the basket immediately

When I saw the play live, I thought the C called basket interference and that was why he was scoring the basket. (Otherwise, it's not his call.) The video combined with several pictures of the play definitely shows it wasn't basket interference and definitely a tip before the buzzer.

As I mentioned earlier, it was a tough play to call live. I'm thinking there will be a monitor at all games from now on.

Any idea why the C was so far outa position? He was a step above the top of the arc- about even to where the T should be on a last second shot.

JR,

After seeing the play, and from what was described and discussed earlier, you are saying that this basket should not have counted? Per NFHS R6.7.6?

I think the camera angle has distorted the view of the C position. I just re-watched the video and it appears to me that the C is about free-throw line extended...maybe just slightly higher.

I was on the table-side closer to the mid-court area...I had a good view of the play and still would have missed it without review.

Nope, I'm saying that the basket shouldn't have counted as per NCAA rule 6-5-1e. That's basically the same as the FED rule.

Technically, it's not even a tap. A tap has to be directed at a player's own basket. It's just a bat of a live ball that becomes dead as soon as time expires. Same result.

[Edited by Mregor on Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:30 PM]