Been in this situation?

I arrive in the gym at good time, begins checking through ecuipment, I make sure there is 3 good balls at each teams bench, taking the best as game ball. Teams and partner arrive, he's reffed for 20 years. I talk to the speacher saying that I want to know if ther is to be player introductions. He says yes and I go talking to my partner saying that we should call the players of then make the presentations, then call 3 minutes left letting them finish warm-ups. That's all according to the book, he simply blows three minutes, common error, and the first he would do.

The game starts and we're underway, this is two tight teams and I know the home team plays it quite rough. I end up as trail the guests going against home teams basket. The girl goes with her shoulder straight in the chest and I call the offensive foul, I turn around to report it, when he gets forward, simply pushes me away and insted call a blocking.
So it goes on, I make calls, he doesn't make any for himself and continously shows that he thinks I'm wrong.

At the end of qtr, home goes up lane, I'm ahead running backwards, at that time there is just one player behind, not having streanght to run, the time's running down and she shoots a panic shot from somewhere around 3, I call it two points, coach stands showing 3 points sign showing she thought it was a three, the qtr ends and she comes forward saying "3 points ref" (politly) I simple says, "I'm lead, it's his zone, then I make a motion with my hand towards the R". He says "He has to see it, I'm behind". I almost started screaming at him there, he doesn't care to run, and therefore he thinks I should see through 8 players and tell him if it were a 3 or not, it ends with an angry coach (with all right) and a tied score (2 points awarded).

What would you do? How do you tell an R and much more excperienced ref he can't even call a junior game!

Also, I'd like some tips, in 2 weeks I'm taking really small ppl, like 12 years, and I'm with another excperienced ref put up with total freshmen, took the basic course last week, have never reffed in their life. Got any tips on how to make a good teachers approch and not make their first game such a mess as mine were?

And also, I've offcourse been put up with the worst of them all :P I'd be suprised if he new the diffrence between Lead and trail :S

There's only one way to handle this situation:

Get in.
Get done.
Get out.

You can't change that official. You can't make him learn the rules during the game. You can't force him to be a good partner. You can't make him run any faster. Just do the game as well as you can, and move on.

If you know ahead of time that you will be working with a weak partner, you can have a good solid pre-game with him and hope that makes some difference. But if it doesn't, then you just have to work your game and get through it.

Good luck.

You signalled 2 points on the shot and when questioned you said it's your partner's call??

btw, don't run backwards.

What are you trying to say. Dont take this personally but if your communication skills on the court are as good as you portray hear your partners will not give you any respect.

Here's a couple of issues you may want to consider.

Where I ref, you dont pull off players for introductions and then let them go back on to the floor for three minutes or warm-up. They finish warm-up, do player intros, and then you go ut and toss the ball.

When you had the foul as trail, sounds like you had a double whistle, and you took the play without communicating. You have to communicate here- Maybe he took it because you werent suppose to take it.

Where did the play start? Whose primary was it in when it started? Who had best look?

Why on earth are you running backwards? Never Never Never!

The end of quarter play sounds like it was in transition of somesort. Where did the ball start? and what time was left on the clock. Did you communicate who had last shot.
In my games 5 seconds or more trail has shot. Less than 5 lead may have shot. It may have been your call in the first place.

You called it two points.

You must have seen something since you were watching it that gave you firm knowledge that it was a two since you scored it as a two. If I were a trail and you signalled a two, I would figure you saw foot on line and had exact knowledge. The when the coach asked me, I would tell him you called it a two since you did and that you saw something I did not.

Did you ever figure that the experienced ref was right?
You worried about getting a good game ball more than you worried about any pregame. No one cares how many balls there are especially at the visitors bench. Visitor never provides a game ball unless all the home ones are garbage.

This post gets my vote for the annual "Pot Meet Kettle" award.

Is this thread being posted on behalf of your partner?

Sounds like another poster had it right -- pot, meet kettle.

Is this thread being posted on behalf of your partner?
 

That is what I was thinking.

Crazy..., try to remember these things:
1.You'll enjoy working with some partners and some you won't. Enjoy the good nights and be thankful for those partners. On bad nights do your best, keep your mouth shut, and get out. Look forward to the next game. We've all been there!
2. Long time veterans have much to teach you -- and sometimes it is through their decision to get lax or slack a little. But everyone can teach you something.
3. From what I gather from your post, you learned somethings you don't want to do AND you clearly made some mistakes yourself! I have a couple of long time veteran partners who are great "rule book" officials, but they truthfully have always had trouble making good calls.
4. Never disrespect an older and more seasoned partner. You'll lose respect from everyone you officiate with and it will come back to bite you in the rear end in a hurry.

Sounds like you and your partner didn't communicate well. When you're the new guy, don't assume you're always right. Ask questions. When I was starting, if I could tell a partner wasn't impressed with something I called, I'd go say, what did you think of...whatever it was. Then I'd Listen to what they have to say, if anything, and make a decision on whether or not I got it right. Sometimes I stood by my original call. Sometimes I got some food for thought that made me a better official. It's great to be confident in your ablities as an official, but there's always something new to learn or think about, no matter what level you work. Personally, that's why I enjoy it so much.

Oh, my !
 

Crazy voyager,
If it happened exactly as you wrote it, then I am also quite befuddled.
mick

I think this is a little harsh.

First, remember that cv works under FIBA rules, so while it may look to us as though he got some rules or procedures wrong, it's possible that he's right and partner is wrong.

Furthermore, when a new ref is struggling to deal with a lousy, but veteran, partner, we need to give him (I think cv is a him) some leeway. He feels frustrated, since he's trying to do things right, but he's getting stomped on, not corrected gently. How can he learn from a partner who shoves him out of the way to re-report a foul to the table?

I think what you need to do, cv, is to find another ref in your area who you can talk to ahead of time about the various partners, and learn how to handle this situation in ways that are acceptable in your locale. This guy sounds like a hopeless cause. And what Chuck says is true. You gain nothing by discussing it with him. Just get in, do your best, and go home. If it's too egregious, you might think about discussing it with your assignor, but even that can be dangerous. Find a sympathetic, experienced mentor, and talk to him or her about everything you struggle with. It's the most productive use of your energy.

CV --

I went back and re-read your post, and I have some further advice. When you are the more experienced ref and you don't want to screw your brand new partner the way you think you got screwed, then the most important thing is to decide ahead of time how to react to certain situations.

What will you do when you think he got a call dead wrong? You know you won't push him out of the way and change the call -- you already know you won't. But what WILL you do?

What will you do when he wants you to bail him out of a jam? Decide now how you will handle it.

How about when he misses a very obvious foul? What if he reports something wrong, or tries to fix the clock when he shouldn't or tells someone a wrong rule?

If you think through some of these things, you'll be a long way down the road toward being a "Good Partner" -- the kind everyone wants to work with.

It'll take a while to write this reply :P

First, thanks, 11 answers is a lot more then I excpected.

I never thought of it this way, I'd better think of when I should signal points or not.

Maybe my communication skills are bad, but english is not my first language, and I've only studied it for 5½ years, I think I speak it good for having stuidied it that short (if 5 years is short :P but I think it is when talking abouyt studying languages).

The refrence is the FIBA 2 man mechanics manual page 11 (This is a 78 pages pdf file with lots of images, do not use the link if you have a slow connection) http://www.fibaamericas.com/files/in...22385BEC91.pdf and what I said is straight from the manual.

I did as usuall, made eye contact, pointed at me, he nodded, it was first when I saw I was reporting an offensive one he altered it

It started at the 3 point line as a cut, it was in my zone/area and I had the best look. It should be my call, I was watching from the side "Looking for the hole" as they thought us during training. I saw the contact, it was with the shoulder in the defenders chest, I called the offensive. I don't see anything wrong in that call, but he apperently did.

There wasn't a scoreboard in this gym, the timekeeper had a clock we couldn't see, he called 1 minute, 30 secs and 10 secs, then blew a whistle, so I don't now how much time it was left, anyway, I've never heard of the 5 second procedure, the ref closest takes the call. If they set it up, it's as usuall, and then the trail monitors 3 point area. I was lead, and watching the box out looking for elbows, pushing and so on, I saw the shoot go off though (read more below).

I did this rush, I shouldn't have signalled anything, I've figured that now. How ever I thought I saw her standing beneth the three point line yes, but normaly the lead shows his "oppinon" when he's uncertain if the trail can see it or not, normaly this is done by extending three fingers if the lead thinks it's a three, the 3-point attempt sign in FIBA. How ever, the trail is the one deciding if it's a 2 or 3. If the trail can't see, he (almost evry time) watches the lead and either shows three if he does or two if he does.

Just a note though, this R is known to decide for himself if it's a three or not, even if he's lead. This is not according to the book but he does that anyway sometimes. Something mostly coaches have been annoyed at.

Right about what? the 2/3 point call.
He wasn't there when I did this, he arrived late.
Regarding balls, it's common that the home referee toghter with the adult in responsibility of the gym takes care of the balls and such during games. Especially if the ref has nothing else to do. I am connected to the club who was home in this game. And usually visitors get mad at obne of 3 ppl when there is no balls for the warm-up (this is becuse it says in the swedish rules that the home team shall provide 3 balls for the warm up.)
1. Home coach.
2. home ref (not at me though, cause then they can end up with a T).
3. adult in responsibility of the gym.

They shold be asking the one responsible, but usually they end up getting mad at the coach insted.
Besides, why wouldn't I put this out? :P the gym was almost empty, half an hour left to the game, I could talk or do something productive, I made something productive (helped scorekepeer getting things sorted, put out balls, checked equipment, things like that).

What is there to say, thanks for the advice. I'll try to remember this for the future, I'm still not certain what this perticular person could teach me though :P But hopfully there were something (if not, it would be quite strange)


We did comunicate ok, I tried to make eyecontact on evry call, mostly he didn't care though. And I'm afraid he's not the first one, people tend to forget the communication between referees, they focus on the ocmunication between the scorekeeper and themselfs insted.

I'm not saying I should be out taking the olympics, I have more to learn then most people, they just don't think so. I've had this automatic thing to make all calls and keep a high level, but that's also my greates weakness, I can turn up and start off bad, and sometimes I can't adjust, I keep it at this low level an entire game, and that's one of my greatest weaknesness. So I've got loads and loads more to learn, and I've got loads of stuff that I can't read in, that'll come with the years and games called. And it's comming, but it's taking time. And I have been offered higher training this year, I said no, reason: I thought I had to little excperience, they thought I was nuts :P

I am.

This is a great idea, there's just one problem, I only know one good ref. Problem is that when I try to learn from him, I have noticed (togheter with others) that half of the techniques he's using, he's invented himself. And some differ a great deal from the one we've been thought by the ones holding referee training. And well, I'm so young that most referees, simply think I'm too young, so I coudl try, but most people then begins to teach me stuff I already know, the basics. What I need is a person who can learn me the things I can't read in, that's what most people thinks I need to learn, signs, mechanics, positioning on court, that kind of stuff, but it's not. BEsides, I've got books to teach me that, I need to know how to act towards partners and people in and around the game. And when to draw the line. Right now I use this forum for this, reading around, trying to learn how to handle mad coaches, angry players, shouting audience, that kind of stuff.

I'll try and find somebody to help me though, I know just he one, but I'm afraid I don't meet him to often :( but he's a great official.

Good question, I almost only have examples on how to not do. Well I suppose pre-game is importent, and to use time-outs, get togheter, talk through, and then outside the court too, it's an entire day with games, I'm getting the same partner several times, we're 6 refs rotating, when I'm off with somebody I have advice for, i suppose a quiet corner and discussion is a good idea. What do you think?

And finaly, the big question *drums*
I've always done this, I've been thougt so by more excperienced refs and educators, and evrybody does. How can you see otherwise if you havn't got eyes in your neck? :P You could look over your shoulder, but also, the rotation takes time, and then the players can pass and you might miss calls:
"Always let the play come towards you when you're lead" one of the silver rules (only got 4 golden :P so I now name this a silver rule).
I don't see why not :P

This took a while to write, like I said:P

Here's why I don't run backwards:

1. Inherent risk of injury to the knees, ankles and hamstring muscles.

2. If you run into someone backwards you'll most likely end up on your @ss risking even further injury.

3. You can run much faster looking over your shoulder than you can running backwards. Also, if you run into someone you'll absorb the impact with your leading shoulder and you'll have a better chance of staying upright. And when running this way you can always turn you head to get a look at where you're going. This is impossible if you run backwards.

Add "wrists" to the list of possible injuries. In my younger (and obviously more awkward) days, I used to run backwards as well during transitions, until one day I tripped over one of the lines (honest!) and broke my wrist when I put my hand down to break my fall.

It is always better to run forward, and turn your head over your shoulder to watch the players. Just don't get into the bad habit of not watching the players as you run.

O.o, no good to risk wrists
*puts on list:
start running forward* :P thanks for the warning

and congratulations for getting thorught the post, I checked, it is 4 pages long :P

I did the same thing in my 2 or 3 year of officiating. Running backwards on a tile floor and broke my wrist. Never did that again!

I did the same thing in my 2nd or 3rd year of officiating. Running backwards on a tile floor and broke my wrist. Never did that again!

DBL must stand for double.:D

The injury so nice he posted it twice...

Crazy

I have a few suggestions for you, for what they are worth.

I see your tag line says you use FIBA. I dont know if that means the game in question was under FIBA also or if it was NFHS.

In any event, it sounds like maybe you could benefit from reading the NFHS Official's Manual, or perhaps ordering Referee Magazine's Guide to Officiating Basketball. Both (the second in particular) is really helpful on many of the issues you raise.

If the game was FIBA, I went to the FIBA site and noticed they offer a Referee's Manual as a free download. Here is the link to the download.

http://www.fiba.com/asp_includes/dow...sp?file_id=325

You may have this already. I do notice that one thing that seems strange to us NFHS officials is that in FIBA the official actually is involved in the choice of the game ball. Frankly, it was interesting reading. In addition, the diagrams show the lead official in what we would call the "quicksand" between the key's lane lines, which is a big NFHS no no. And it says both officials should watch all 10 players. Again, big NFHS no no.

Regarding a double whistle, it states:

"Whenever both officials blow their whistles for a foul, they should not make any immediate movement. Each official must be aware of his partner, just in case he has committed himself to another decision."

It also notes:

"There is no distinction between the referee and the umpire when it comes to taking decisions on fouls or violations. Younger or less experienced officials have just as much authority to take decisions as their veteran colleagues. Cooperation and teamwork is vital. They set their standards by accepting their responsibilities."

FIBA has some insteresting court coverage ideas, dividing the front court into 6 zones or "rectangles". Very different from NFHS, but still worth NFHS consideration frankly for philosophical discussion about coverage and ideas behind mechanics.

As a funny side note, I think it was hillarious to see euro ball rules make this comment and then put it in bold:

"Avoid penalising incidental contact that does not affect the play, especially when a player drives to the basket and scores. Similarly, do not call an offensive foul because a defensive player puts on a [bold] theatrical display and falls to the floor. [end bold]"

Gotta love euro ball! :)

Sorry, back to my comments.

Regarding running backwards, the FIBA referee manual specifically says you shouldnt and that you should run looking over your shoulder:

"9. In transition from trail official to lead official, do not turn your head away from the play and look down court, keep your eyes focused on the play and the players at all times by looking over your shoulder."

Spend some time with the officiating manuals. They are really helpful. And thanks for your post which led me to the FIBA manual and some real interesting things to discuss.

As for bad parthers, I've had many. And I learned from each one of them. Sometimes I learn what not to do. Sometimes I learn that I have been doing something wrong.

Dont presume you are right. Use everything as a learning tool. It will make you better.

It ain't that strange in NFHS.

R1-12-3 sez the R under NFHS rules is involved in the choice of the game ball too.

Sure, we check the one presented by the home team. That is a different procedure from what is outlined in the FIBA manual. The reason I commented is because it sounded strange when Crazy posted that pregame he was checking the ball racks for the home and the visitor to pick a ball. That seemed wierd, not NFHS. But the FIBA manual seems to say that is what they do. I wasnt saying NFHS officials have no role in the ball, just that it is much different from the FIBA way of doing things.

I'm from europe (Sweden) and only do FIBA games, I have a slight idea of NFHS/NCAA/NBA rules but I don't take any games under those rules.

You see now that some of my reading and posting are confusing :P there are some technical diffrences after all.

heh, the rules have been changed scince the last update acctually:
"all attempts of theatricaly trying to gain a call should be penalised with a technical foul". So fall to the floor intentionaly (shouting "aaah") and you may end up with a T.

I didn't see that, I'd better tell other people not to do that too, cause most people arn't aware these manuals exists...

It would be fun with a topic discussing difrences between diffrent rules sets, and officiating tecniwues (NFHS/NCAA/NBA/FIBA), comparing good/bad things, it would be fun to debate this (I would also love to see an NFHS officiating manual, rule book and case book if anyone can give me a link for that.

Actually, it does. It means double referee (soccer and basketball). However, I no longer officiate soccer and didn't want to change it. I thought I used the edit button in time to make my correction, but this government computer is slow, slow, slow!

My 2 cents on running backwards besides not being able to see where you're going and the risk of falling.........most people look pretty awkward when they run backwards. Heck, most look funny when they run forward but especially backwards.

I can't help myself, this movie is just fun (I think) but after all,I'm no soccer officaial :P watch and you'll know why (the sites swedish so don't mind the text lol)

http://www.snabbstart.com/film/vaerl...te-domare.aspx

See what we mean about running backwards...you don't want to look like that, do you? (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) :D

Now, if only I can incorporate that yellow card flourish into my "T" mechanic...