(ncaa) A1 is shooting freethrows, after the first of two, we have some subs to come into the game, A6 for A2, B6 and B7 for B1 and B2, so while these subs are coming in coach from Team B sends up another sub B8 to come in for B3, after team A coach sees who is coming in he changes his mind and wants to sub again so sends in A7 to come in for A6 that just entered for A2 a second ago....

Big argument! Team B coach didn't think he A6 could come out because he hasn't played a second yet... i was U1 and told my parnter that he didn't have to play a second, it was the players that came out going to the bench had to SIT for a second!! So then we "Discussed" it and disagreed, so i told him what i think the rule was again, and he said "not" and i told him he was the ref and good luck...he then went to the Team A coach and told him to put back in A6 because he has to play... Me being friends with Team A's coach didn't help matters any, he called me over there to help him out, but i kinda tried to stay out of it, and told him my thoughts and left it at that!!! Any suggestions on what else i could of done???? After great discussion, team A coach put back in player A6 for the sake of the argument and then said he would be calling our assignor.... haven't heard from him yet, but i have talked to the coach about it!!!! Just wanting to make sure i'm correct on the rule!! The player can come in and the coach changes his mind and can take him/her right back out right???

i dont see why not
 

the rule only pertains to players who have subbed out...

3-4-13 of 2005 NCAA rules.

Your R kicked it.;)

that is what i thought, he just got me thinking about it and i wanted to make sure...one of those stupid things!!! we did have another good discussion after the game... he still wouldn't admit he kicked it!

The crew kicked it.

That depends on who the R was, I guarantee there are more than a few posters on this forum that if told, "I'm 150% sure that is not the rule," would not change their mind.

In that case just what is the rest of the crew supposed to do?

2 choices:

- let him get the rule wrong.
- do not let him get the rule wrong.

I'll go with door #2 Monty.

2 choices:

- let him get the rule wrong.
- do not let him get the rule wrong.

I'll go with door #2 Monty.
[/B][/QUOTE]What if the R still refuses?

Do you offer to arm wrestle him?

Yikes. Jmo, but one official <b>only</b> should be talking to the coaches. The other official should be with him listening. The official talking should be the R, right or wrong.

What if the R still refuses?

Do you offer to arm wrestle him? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, first of all if you know you're right you do not say that you *think* you know what the rule is. You say you *know* what the rule is. And if you *know* what the rule is you make sure you don't let your partner take that away from you.

If you do not *know* the rule then you keep your mouth shut.

As a crew you all need to agree. It sounds childish but if two of you were saying that he could leave the game without playing and the R was saying that he had to play, you would be the najority. I understand that you don't want to strong arm a partner but how else would you come to an agreement? This is a tough situation. I have had to swallow my tongue many times because I was working with a veteran official that wanted to interpret the rules his way instead of the way they were supposed to be interpreted.

Has he since admitted that he kicked it? If so then maybe next time he would be more inclined to listen to what you and your partner have to say.

Yes, that's a hard spot to be in.
 

NCAA game, eh?
I assume the assignor selected the Referee position.
Further, I assume the assignor has given you direction to either back up your partner or to rat him out if you [two of three members of the crew] could not agree with the decision.

What was U2 doing? ...Watching the players?
Why wasn't U2 brought in for help? A decision of 2 to 1 is easier to live with than a split decision.
mick

Well, first of all if you know you're right you do not say that you *think* you know what the rule is. You say you *know* what the rule is. And if you *know* what the rule is you make sure you don't let your partner take that away from you.

If you do not *know* the rule then you keep your mouth shut. [/B][/QUOTE]Yabut.....if you do everything the way it's supposed to be done...get the R aside where it's just between the 2 of you gals....explain that you know you're 110%( :) ) right...offer to take any and all post-game flak if it does turn out that you're wrong....and the dickhead R still insists on doing it his way?

Now what, soothsayer?

Sayeth me some sooths, Sammy.....

Wonderfully said! This is much better than a majority rules type of thing. So much for witholding ignorance!!!

Yabut.....if you do everything the way it's supposed to be done...get the R aside where it's just between the 2 of you gals....explain that you know you're 110%( :) ) right...offer to take any and all post-game flak if it does turn out that you're wrong....and the dickhead R still insists on doing it his way?

Now what, soothsayer?

Sayeth me some sooths, Sammy..... [/B][/QUOTE]

Then there's only 1 thing left to do, aint there Moe? You poke him in the eye, knock him on the head punch him in the stomach, go nyuck nyuck nyuck and run away shouting "Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo!"

http://tonova.typepad.com/thesuddencurve/curly.jpg

Then there's only 1 thing left to do, aint there Moe? You poke him in the eye, knock him on the head punch him in the stomach, go <font color = red>nyuck nyuck nyuck</font> and run away shouting "Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo!"

[/B][/QUOTE]If it was you, it'd be "nyork,nyork,nyork".

If it was you, it'd be "nyork,nyork,nyork". [/B][/QUOTE]

btw, did you get my email earlier?

btw, did you get my email earlier? [/B][/QUOTE]No, that e-mail addy has been screwing up lately every now and then. You sending me love and viruses again?

There's this wonderful new invention JR...it's called penicillin - should clear up all those love viruses you keep getting.

And as far as the original question goes - I agree with Dan...if you present it as "I know" vs. "I think", then the R's gonna listen...if not, then when the commish calls, my response is ALWAYS "WE screwed it up, boss"...never sell a partner down the river to the boss.

Well, if it's one of Dan's love viruses, I'd better rush-order a coupla 45 gallon drums of penicillin then.

Can you buy penicillin in tanker wagons, Rocky?

Well, yeah!!!
Steady customers get quantity discount offers all the time.
mick

Yabut.....if you do everything the way it's supposed to be done...get the R aside where it's just between the 2 of you gals....explain that you know you're 110%( :) ) right...offer to take any and all post-game flak if it does turn out that you're wrong....and the dickhead R still insists on doing it his way?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Dan, in all seriousness, this happens to me efvery once in a while -- I know I'm right, but can't convince partner. Physically, in terms of body movements, and words spoken, what should I do? Just bulldoze the R and take over the sitch? Shout him down? What?

Dan, in all seriousness, this happens to me efvery once in a while -- I know I'm right, but can't convince partner. Physically, in terms of body movements, and words spoken, what should I do? Just bulldoze the R and take over the sitch? Shout him down? What? [/B][/QUOTE]

Jewel,
Seems to me that all you can do is your best to convince the partner and then be the first to call your Howard, ...efvery time it happens.
mick

Dan, in all seriousness, this happens to me efvery once in a while -- I know I'm right, but can't convince partner. Physically, in terms of body movements, and words spoken, what should I do? Just bulldoze the R and take over the sitch? Shout him down? What? [/B][/QUOTE]

Juulie, I cannot imagine that a happily married woman in 2005 would not know how to make her displeasure known in no uncertain terms.

But, if you need some words try this:

"Hey pard, you're f@ckin' this up big time, you should take my advice."

(Notice I used the apostrophe to lessen the blow.)

Yea, that apostrophe helps a lot. Thanks.

Yes assignor picked the veteran R official(who by the way thinks he is perfect), yes i told him i knew i was right, u2 didn't offer any advice (don't think he knew either way) That is all i could of done, "when crew can't decide the "R" makes the decision... So he did, coach called assignor, we both got phone calls, he has been repromanded for not doing the right thing!! But an arm wrestling event would of been nice out on the court in front of everyone!!!!! Hey, when someone is that stuck on themselves and won't admit when they are wrong, all you can do is give them the advice, whether they take it or not is up to them!!! Nothing else i could of done, IMO, unless i just sat down at mid court and refused to get up until he changed his mind! :)

Hmmmmm, that's "kinda" like being pregnant, isn't it?

JR "redflagged" some of what happened...I'll just expound on it a little, if I may.

You didn't stay out of it...you got involved in a discussion with your "friend", Coach A.
I'd kinda like to know what you told the Coach your "thoughts" were.

Did you tell him you thought you were right and your partner was wrong?
Did you suggest to him to call your assignor?

Sometimes a partner can be sold out with just a rolling of the eyes. We as officials have to be aware of our actions out there on the court...the only real friends you have out there should be each other...(At least for the duration of the game)

You can get into your "discussions" in the locker room. If you're not a strong enough official to get your point across on the court, then let the stronger official live and die with his/her decision. Sooner or later your rules knowledge will get you more respect, and the R's hopefully will start listening.

As for calling your assignor everytime another official doesn't listen to you...I don't know mick...that could be dangerous territory for an official trying to move up.

I liked Dan's response that the "crew" kicked it. That's the attitude of a guy I'd go to war with.

This is just my opinion jritchie...but when you said the R thinks he is perfect...it sounds like you two may have a personality conflict...be careful with these petty disagreements, and when you are correct in a call...know how to handle it...again, just my opinion.

Well Rook, Yes, the R has a personality conflict, but not just with me, it's everyone he works with, i'm one of these guys that can get along with everyone and will be behind partners no matter what, and that is exactly what i did until the game was over!!! Afterwards my partner and i discussed and disagreed still, he was going to make the choice no matter what i said, so YES THE CREW KICKED IT, but i did everything i could do short of embarassing the CREW... After he made his decision, the coach (friend) called me over and asked me what i thought, I didn't hang anyone out, i just told him that after discussion, that is what we were going with...he looked at me and gave me that look and said "you know that is not right", so i tried to tell him without blaming anyone, he is the ref and he has to make the FINAL DECISION on any discussion between us.... I in no way suggested to call any assignor, that was his decision, he called to get the ruling, and our assignor called the 'R' and he admitted he kicked it and told that i tried to help him out and he ignored it..end of discussion!!! The assignor took 2 games and told him the next time he didn't know a rule to listen to someone who did!