I searched the books high and low and I am 100% sure of this rule but my partner yesterday swore he was right. Where in the casebook is this example so i can show him.

jump ball A tips it OOB -- He gives B the ball and the arrow and said it was a controlled tip...by then my jaw hit the floor and I began T'ing up everyone...but all jokes aside i told him B ball arrow to A and he disagreed...

6.4.1.C and E.

Control a tip? Arent very many of these.

If the team had clearly caught the ball and then did something else to violate( beside the violation simultanueos with the end of the jump) or threw ball away this would be correct but A tips it OOB...

The "controlled tip" is just as much a myth as "can't catch your own airball". There's no such thing in the rulebook as a controlled tip (or tap, or bat). To have control, a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. That's it, that's the only way to have player control.

So unless the jumper caught the ball before throwing OOB (which would've been a violation before the ball ever got OOB), the jumper's team should've gotten the arrow.

thanks
 

.

Even if the jumper caught the ball...his team would still get the arrow. (The opposing team would get the throw-in because of the violation.)

I'm sure you know that Chuck...but, the unless might have been confusing to some.

Excellent point, Rook. I should've said, "unless he caught the ball, it's simply an OOB violation." The arrow was irrelevant to the type of violation.

Good catch. Thanks.

Rejump?

absolutly not
 

a rejump -- only a rejump if we couldnt tell who clearly hit the ball -- but if its unquestionable then the team that hit the ball out of bounds gets the arrow and the other team gets the ball.

Re: absolutly not
 

And in that case, the two people who caused it go OOB simultaneously do the rejump.

A1 and B1 legally tap the jump ball. Before either team gains control of the ball, A2 and B2 touch the ball simultaneously and the ball goes OOB. The officials cannot determine who touched the ball last. RULING: A2 and B2 will be the designated jumpers for a jump ball in the center circle.

Re: Re: absolutly not
 

That would also be the case if A2 and B2 have a held ball, before either team gains possession.

If I'm reading the note correctly for 6-4, A2 and B2 would also re-jump if they commit a double foul prior to player/team control.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 7th, 2005 at 03:02 PM]

yes
 

because there has still been no possession established to start the game...

Re: yes
 

It does seem strange, and a tad risky, to have two players that just fouled each other re-jump.

That would probably be better handled with a re-jump with the original jumpers.

player control?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]The "controlled tip" is just as much a myth as "can't catch your own airball". There's no such thing in the rulebook as a controlled tip (or tap, or bat). To have control, a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. That's it, that's the only way to have player control.

Lets say A1 shoots and ball does not go in and A2 comes in and follow through with a 1 hand tip and comes down on B1 while B1 has legal guarding position. Since A1 never held the ball is A1 consider in player control?

1) So do we have a player control foul on A1 and wave the basket.

2) Since you say that there is no such thing as a controlled tip do we count the basket and call a loose ball foul on A1 and allow B1 to shoot free throws if in the bonus?

3) A1 get foul during the tip in by B1 andbasket is good, so count the basket and give A1 1 free throw or since A1 was not consider in player control award A1 free throws if in the bonus and still count the basket?

I always thought that you can have player control on a try for a goal on a tip or tap.

Re: player control?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xxssmen
[B]Yes, because A2 was an airborne shooter, not necessarily because there was player control.

Quote:

2) Since you say that there is no such thing as a controlled tip do we count the basket and call a loose ball foul on A1 and allow B1 to shoot free throws if in the bonus?

You're describing a "Tap" -- a defined term in 4-41, not a "tip" -- an undefined term commonly used to refer to the jumpers touching the jump ball

Quote:

3) A1 get foul during the tip in by B1 andbasket is good, so count the basket and give A1 1 free throw or since A1 was not consider in player control award A1 free throws if in the bonus and still count the basket?

A Tap is considered "in the act of shooting", so count the basket and give one FT.

Quote:

I always thought that you can have player control on a try for a goal on a tip or tap.

You can't have it on a tip or a Tap. If you are judging "player control" during the "Tap" then you are really treating it as a Catch (player control) and a Try. This could make a difference if the play happened in the last .3 seconds.

In the rest of the game, the fact that there's no PC on a Tap does not affect any of the shooting or PC foul issues.

Re: Re: player control?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins
[B]There is no player or team control on the following -

dead ball
throw-in
a jump ball
or when the ball is in flight druring a try or tap for a goal.

Re: Re: player control?
 

Are you sure about that, Bob? I thought I remembered a few years ago that this was changed. If an airborne player tapped the ball toward the goal and then fouled a defensive player, this was considered a PC foul. I'll have to go look that one up. . .

Re: Re: Re: player control?
 

A tap is the same as a try, so A1 is considered an airborne shooter in this case. PC foul extends to the airborne shooter even though he does not have control under fed rules.

Player control?
 

IREFU2,

I,m confused now on #3

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) A1 get foul during the tip in by B1 andbasket is good, so count the basket and give A1 1 free throw or since A1 was not consider in player control award A1 free throws if in the bonus and still count the basket?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A1 get foul during the tip in by B1 and basket is good, so count the basket and give A1 1 free throw. Now if u reward A1 a free throw for being foul I would consider A1 is in player control since u are rewarding him a free throw.

since A1 was not consider in player control award A1 free throws if in the bonus and still count the basket?

Now if you say A1 is not in player control and you count the basket. Are you gonna award 2 free throws to A1 if its in "DOUBLE" bonus. So we have an oppourtunity for a 4 point play for A1? Explain that to Team B coach.

As far as a player going back up to tip or tap the ball back in and get foul I will always consider him an airboorne shooter which mean PC applies here.

Now if its not consider PC please explain it to me why it isn't.

Re: Player control?
 

When A1 commits the foul, it's a PC foul (4-19-6) because A1 is an airborne shooter (the last part of the rule), not because A1 has PC (see 4-12-1).

When A1 is fouled, it's not a common foul (4-19-2) because A1 was "... tapping for goal" and that includes the airborne shooter (4-41-1)