Situation….

Ref gives ball to wrong team (A) after time-out. Player A1 receives in bound pass and scores basket in A’s basket. Easy uncontested lay-up since most players were at the other end of court waiting for Team B to come into front court.

Meanwhile, Coach for Team B is screaming about the mistake and play continues like it would after any basket scored. What should be done? Correctable situation?

Once the ball is touched inbounds, it's too late to fix it. You just have to deal with it and move on. It's not a Correctable Error under 2-10. You can take the ball back at any point up to the ball being touched legally inbounds. After that, it's tough. Be sure you call your assignor when you get home, and tell him before coach B does. That shows that you're willing tro own up to your mistakes and learn your lesson.

not one of the correctable errors in the rulebook.

Thanks Rainmaker.

You say "You can take the ball back at any point up to the ball being touched legally inbounds." So if the mistake is discovered right away before inbound pass, something CAN be done? Or is it still not correctable?

Yup, it's still Fixable, (aothough not Correctable in the 2-10 sense).

in your example, the off ref, should have whistled as you handed the ball to the inbounder. However, even up to the point of the throw-in pass, yes you can think, "Wait a minute!!" and take it back.

To prevent this, get in the habit of thinking of the re-start as soon as the to is whistled. Put that into the to routine.

TWEET!! White time out. 30 seconds. White ball oob."

Rainmaker be right as per case book play 7.5.2SitB.

Whew, that's a relief!

Why?...lol

You had it nailed completely.. rules-wise and procedure-wise...without having to crack a book. Good job. I just looked up the cite for you, in case anybody really cared.

I'm auditioning for "The Apprentice".

You're fired.

The Martha Stewart version, right??!!

Good luck landing the role of "the doorman"!

I get it. Fix-able before the WRONG team gets the ball. But not fix-able or correctable after the WRONG team scores the basket. Right?

I know this answer will displease many, if not most, here, but...

That's right, if you're taking a rules test.

However, in real life, if this happened to me I would take the points off the board, reset the clock if I knew what the clock was supposed to be before the throw-in, apologize to the coaches for being an idiot, and give the ball to the proper team.

Flame away :)

http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.co...es/carlton.jpg
"Hello, this is Carlton, your doorman."

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 02:20 PM]

Flame? No, but just hope that I'm not being evaluated when I'm working with you. Nothing personal.

No, I'm auditioning to be Martha's love slave.

Answer me this though, Yoda......

Why did they put an ankle bracelet on poor ol' Martha? She lives on a 150 acre farm with about 300 servants. Why did the judge even dream that she would possibly ever think of making a break for it?

Hmmmmm..... Martha on the lam. Could be another "The Fugitive".

"Les Miserables"? Martha as Jean Valjean?

Not quite a flame, but if you like, you can take it that way.

My opinion is that some of the problems we face as officials arise from the fact that calls are not made the same from one game/one official to another. It's bad enough to have differences occur due to judgement or "style", let alone differences due to not knowing the rules, or just plain disregarding the rules.

Nope, you can't go back and fix any throw-in error after <b>any</b> player on either team has touched the ball inbounds to end the throw-in. See casebook play 6.4.1SitD also.

I work with the same partner all season, so we probably won't work together. But if we did work together, I wouldn't let you hand the wrong team the ball :)

So, do you worry more about the outcome of an evaluation than you worry about changing a patently unfair outcome on the court?

If you give the wrong team the ball, YOU'VE made a gross error on the court. Allowing that team to score after YOUR gross error amplifies YOUR gross error.

As an evaluator, you'd get more game management points from me fixing the scenario the way I described. You've already lost all the points you can lose by giving the wrong team the ball. No coach I know would demand those points knowing his team didn't deserve the ball in the first place.

Again, I didn't expect my response to be embraced here -- I feel too many on boards like this have their noses buried too deeply in case books to see the bigger picture. Like how you're going to manage the coach of the team wrongly offended after (1) the wrong team gets the ball and (2) the wrong team scores on an uncontested layup all because YOU couldn't remember which team was supposed to have the ball.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 04:36 PM]

So it's better to know case 6.4.1 situation 69 than it is to know which team (only 2 choices, BTW) is SUPPOSED TO GET THE BALL?

It's a good thing I'm not a coach, because after you ruled this way against my team, I'd likely get tossed.

Rich,

I agree with your philosophy that we need to get the call right. Where have I heard that before? (oh yeah, it was on this board about a thousand times). And I also agree that getting the call right is WAY higher on my list of important things than what my evaluator is going to think of me doing what is best for the game.

However, if my crew doesn't notice that we gave the ball to the wrong team until after a basket is scored, we're all asleep (and possible comatose) at the wheel and we deserve any beating that we receive.

Z

As an evaluator, you'd get more game management points from me fixing the scenario the way I described. You've already lost all the points you can lose by giving the wrong team the ball. No coach I know would demand those points knowing his team didn't deserve the ball in the first place.

Again, I didn't expect my response to be embraced here -- I feel too many on boards like this have their noses buried too deeply in case books to see the bigger picture. Like how you're going to manage the coach of the team wrongly offended after (1) the wrong team gets the ball and (2) the wrong team scores on an uncontested layup all because YOU couldn't remember which team was supposed to have the ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]As one of the great men in history once said "And Now For Something Completely Different".......

Jmo but I think all of you are being way too simplistic and <b>all</b> of you are missing the "big picture".

This particular situation has got way too many variables in it to say "It's <b>gotta</b> be done this way--i.e. the level of ball being played, time and score, importance of game, political ramifications, etc.

If you're in a situation where a do-ever doesn't really mean that much-- ms game, blowout, meaningless game, whatever-- then by all means have a do-over. Just make sure you explain to the coaches why you're doing it. No harm/no foul.

If you're in a state playoff game replete with assignors/evaluators, then you had better damnwell be <b>right</b>. A screw-up can be explained away. Sh!t happens. A deliberate ignoring of or misapplication of a rule could be referee career suicide though. A state assignor/evaluator present can explain away <b>why</b> something may have happened as long as the situation over-all can also be explained as being handled properly rules-wise. Iow if you made a mistake, you might as well admit it. Evaluators <b>cannot</b> explain away an official deliberately misapplying a rule. And if you think, if this play might or possibly does make a difference in who wins or loses at the state playoff varsity level, that the losing coach is gonna just say "Oh, great, that's good sportsmanship. I'm all for it", well, you're a helluva lot more optimistic than I am.

There's a time and a place for everything. Experience and common sense usually will tell you where and when not you can do what Rich is suggesting.

Again, jmo fwiw.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 05:19 PM]

We walked down this road a few weeks ago.

Maybe some nice person will look back & find it.

If three officials let this happen in a game at a state tournament, they are all committing career suicide no matter how they choose to try to solve it.

Z

I wasn't involved. Until a week ago, it was football season. :)

Yup, probably, but the main discussion is what to do <b>if</b> it actually does happen.

Much as I'd love to say that something like that would never,ever happen to me personally, I really couldn't - to be quite honest.

I was working with a newer guy last year who, in his haste, put the ball in play with 6 on the floor. I had my hand up as I knew they hadn't completed the substitution and he didn't make eye contact with me.

I agressively stopped play (the ball MIGHT have come onto the floor) and I had one of the players sent off. No technical, no complaining either.

A gross error on the part of the officials in managing the game shouldn't penalize either team.

A similar but different happened to me long ago (I think that's the thread Dan is referring to). Two-person game...I signaled white and verbalized white and then brought a few subs in. Partner hands ball to red. I notice immediately, but hesitate on my whistle briefly to make sure. Two dribbles and then I crack the whistle. Give ball back to red. This is an intense, heated game with playoff implications and not a word was said. Nothing. Nada. I should have reacted quicker. No doubt about that.

Had I let play continue, we would have had a hornet's nest and our game probably would have made the main story of the sports page the next day. Sometimes we just do what we gotta do.

We can quote rules all day, but the truth is that almost all refs occaisonally use their better judgement to get out of a situation.

How many officials haven't given the ball to blue when it went off blue but they passed on contact by white? Hey, that's against the rules, but I've seen it done so many times that I've lost count.

Z

Which brings up an interesting question...

If one official has his hand raised, does the ball really become live when the ball is handed to a player by the other official? I think an argument could be made that the ball remained dead since at least one of the officials "indicated" that it was a dead ball and was to remain a dead ball.

I agree. Completely. And that would be the right thing to do.

But it's not the same as a sitch where no one noticed the mistake until after a shot had been taken by the other team. At that point, we are told exactly what to do, and we have to do it. THere's no judgment, common sense or anything else involved. Rules knowledge is important. That doesn't have to exclude the possibility of being able to admit I'm wrong. But when the rules are specific about how to handle a certain sitch, that's what we're there for. Otherwise, there's no point having rules at all.

When my evaluators are watching, they're seeing a team. If my partner goofs up, it's my fault too. If I goof up, we both look bad. So in this situation, if it's me that gave the ball to the wrong team, I'm gonna hustle over and apologize to the coach, explain the rule, and then get the ball into play. And you're going to have egg on your face too, but you've got to back me up. Period. If you're the one who let the wrong inbounder have the ball, I'm going to try to stop you from having a do-over. But if you insist, then I'm going to have egg on my face same as you. But it'll be two eggs, not one because now we've goofed twice.

Now you're picking and choosing the rules you want to enforce. By the letter of the rule, the ball became live when the throw-in official handed the ball to the player. We do what we gotta do.

IMO, black-and-white "rulebook" officials bring a lot of problems upon themselves. Those who see all the gray are much more successful.

Z

I"M picking and choosing?!?!? What rule have I "picked and chosen" here? I'm baffled!

See Case 7.5.2. You're saying it's okay for Rich to go against that?!

Please don't give me the routine about "rulebook" officials bringing problems on themselves. That's just hogwash.


[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 07:20 PM]

You supported ignoring the T for the 6 players but insist that you must enforce the rule for giving the ball to the wrong team. I suppose you've never chosen common sense over a specific rule? Hogwash yourself. :rolleyes: We all do it. But that's different because we <i> have </i> to walk a mile in our own shoes.

How many T's did you call for an elbow that hit nothing but air before they changed that rule to a violation? If you called a bunch, you were the only one I know enforcing that rule regularly.

Z

Not everywhere. Had the exact situation in Indiana last season-Sectional final Cascade vs Cloverdale. Cascade was incorrectly given the ball for inbounds after a time-out, and advanced to half-court before the officials noticed their error. They killed the play, reset the clock, and then gave Cloverdale possession. Sad part is that scenario wouldn't crack the top 3 in official errors at that tournament for the week. Two of the three officials advanced to regional games the next week.

Indiana has problems.

6 players? Who's talking about 6 players? I thought the subject was a throw-in by the wrong team?

I rarely choose "common sense" over a rule. Even when I do something that isn't in the rule book, it's according to my interpreter. I find that common sense varies from person to person and is not to be relied on. The rules as interpreted locally are much more solid footing.

In fact, yes, I have given T's for the elbows, and for 6 on the floor, and I've apologized for not being able to have a do-over on giving the ball to the wrong team. And if anyone ever complained to my assignor that I was being "a rulebook official" he said, "Good. That's what we work toward."

But none of that answers my question to you. Am I picking and choosing? You didn't give any specifics. And you said nothing about my case book reference. The sitch at the beginning of this thread is described exactly in the case book, and the clear answer is there, too. There's nothing gray about it.

Sometimes choosing the gray is better than choosing the black and white. That's how I read what zebraman posted.

I see this happened in Indiana. Maybe those officials have problems, but I applaud how they handled the specific situation mentioned here. It's fair and it's equitable, regardless of case 17.58.21.

Originally posted by rainmaker


6 players? Who's talking about 6 players? I thought the subject was a throw-in by the wrong team?


Rich cited another case where he chose to not call a T for 6 players on the floor. Your response was "I agree. Completely. And that would be the right thing to do." I agree too.... even though it goes against the specific rule which says to call a T on a team if they have 6 players on the floor during a live ball.


I rarely choose "common sense" over a rule.


Key word being "rarely." That is exactly my point. I rarely do too.


Even when I do something that isn't in the rule book, it's according to my interpreter.


Interpreter's don't cover every once-in-a-lifetime situation. Sometimes you have to crawl out on that ledge by your lonesome.


I find that common sense varies from person to person and is not to be relied on. The rules as interpreted locally are much more solid footing.


Yes, common sense does vary from one to another. Anyone can call fouls and violations. It's that common sense and game management that provides separation between officials.


In fact, yes, I have given T's for the elbows, and for 6 on the floor, and I've apologized for not being able to have a do-over on giving the ball to the wrong team. And if anyone ever complained to my assignor that I was being "a rulebook official" he said, "Good. That's what we work toward."


Yikes. I put a high value on rule knowledge, but I know what "rulebook official" means and it isn't a good thing.


But none of that answers my question to you. Am I picking and choosing? You didn't give any specifics.


Just relating back to your own post.


And you said nothing about my case book reference. The sitch at the beginning of this thread is described exactly in the case book, and the clear answer is there, too. There's nothing gray about it.


Like I already said, I don't know a single official that hasn't varied from the rules in weird and once-in-a-lifetime circumstances. Is it right or wrong? I guess you can't know unless you were there.

Have a nice evening. Gotta go train some newbies. I'll try not to screw them up too bad. :D

Z

Zebra -- It's clear we aren't communicating. If your newbies are screwed up too bad, they can come down here and get straightened out.