Here is a situation I am not certain about.

Team A's throw-in is deflected but not controlled in the frontcourt. The ball is loose for three seconds. A-5 is standing in the key during that time. By rule, should a three second violation be called against A-5?

PS. I know that a 3-second violation can be called during an interrupted dribble, but this is not really an interrupted dribble, is it?

Jay

When the NCAA went to team control fouls they made team control on a throw in however they modified the three second rule with the following:

A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation .

However in your situation

Art.2.A team shall be in control when:
a.A player of the team is in control;
b.While a live ball is being passed between teammates;or
c.When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
Art.3.Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for
goal,an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead.

Since there is no loose ball definition in NCAA like the NBA the answer is yes it is a violation, but I would sure as heck use some common sense here

SECTION 7 THREE SECONDS
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not remain for three seconds in that part of his/her free-throw lane between the end line and the farther edge of the free-throw line while the ball is in control of his/her team in his/her frontcourt.

ART. 2 . . . The three-second restriction applies to a player who has only one foot touching the lane boundary. The line is part of the lane. All lines designating the free-throw lane, but not lane-space marks and neutral-zone marks, are part of the lane.

ART. 3 . . . Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.
PENALTY: (Section 7) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

The answer is no, it's not a 3-second violation. The reason is that the count doesn't start until the throw-in ends, or something like that. I'll have to look it up in the morning. That was a test question last year when they changed the team control rule. The answer was no, but I can't recall exactly what the rule citation was.

Here's the actual NCAA rule from the 05-06 book
 

Section 9. Three-Second Rule
Art. 1. Aplayer shall not be permitted to have any part of his or her body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his or her front court.
a. A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation.
A.R. 16. The ball is loose or there is an interrupted dribble. RULING: The three-second count shall be in effect. The team that had control before the loose ball or during an interrupted dribble shall maintain team control until the opponent secures control.
Art. 2.Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the three-second lane for less than three seconds, dribbles or moves in immediately to try for field goal.
a. The player shall not pass the ball instead of trying for goal.

Well, it's morning, and I've been looking and darned if I can't find anything that says what I thought it said. It sure looks like the original situation is a 3-second violation. That can't be what they want, tho. That would be a horrible interpretation, if that's really the way the NCAA wants it called.

Interesting isnt it

Team A has ball for throwin and under NCAA has team control. The ball inbounds hits a player, and is loose rolling around while the big center parks in the paint.

Nothing different than a ball thrown from backcourt with same thing...

As I mentioned earlier common sense goes a long way in this one- Even in NFHS ball wold we call a 3 second call if the ball was passed from backcourt touched a front court player and ball loose rolling around on the floor?

I'm not although I now a few guys who would.

Makes you wish NCAA and NFHS would wriye in a NBA type defnition of loose ball doesnt it?

I agree that I would never call it in that situation. I saw this question on an old refresher exam. The answers were not provided. That's why I said what is the rule, not common sense.

Re: Here's the actual NCAA rule from the 05-06 book
 

And, since the (NCAA) throw-in doesn't end until a player gains control on the court, the original play presented isn't a violation.

Re: Re: Here's the actual NCAA rule from the 05-06 book
 

Bob, once the ball is released toward the court is the team still "in control of the ball for a throw-in"?

Ok, how about this - the rule states:
Art. 1. A player shall not be permitted to have any part of his or her body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his or her front court.

Yes, there's team control. And, yes, the ball establishes front court status when it's touched inbounds. But is that considered "in control of that player's team in his or her front court"? I always thought that was a slight, but important distinction. When you hand the ball to the player for the throw-in, there is team control, but the ball isn't in the front court, it's OOB. Even though the player may be standing under their own basket, it's not in the front court.

Maybe I'm splitting the wrong hairs, but I would only start the 3-sec. count when the throw-in team establishes control in the front court, not when the ball establishes front court status. Am I splitting the right hairs, or am I using wrong-headed logic to prove the point?

Re: Re: Re: Here's the actual NCAA rule from the 05-06 book
 

Well, as Bob points out the rules do say a throw-in ends when the passed ball is controlled by an inbounds player. So I would have to say yes, the team is in control for a throw-in. Can't have 3 seconds during a throw-in, the throw-in ends when the ball is in control, so the play in question is not a violation.

How else would you read it??

Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's the actual NCAA rule from the 05-06 book
 

Ok, I'm extra-dense this morning. How do you come to that conclusion? I don't see that in the rule. Not being a smart-@$$ either. I'm confused.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's the actual NCAA rule from the 05-06 book
 

Rule 4, Throw-in, 2005 verson:

Art. 5. A throw-in shall end when the passed ball is controlled by an inbounds player. The throw-in may be controlled or touched in bounds by the thrower-in after the ball touches or is legally touched by a player in
bounds.

Ok, I'm with you so far. How do you go from that to "you can't have a 3-second violation during a throw-in"?

WTF??

Rule 9, under Three Second Rule, 2005 version:

A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation.

But as soon as the throw-in is released toward the court, that team is no longer in control for a throw-in adjacent to the frontcourt.

Isn't that the whole issue here? We all know that there's team control. The question is whether the exception that you quoted above applies to the duration of the throw-in or only to the period of time when the ball is at the disposal of, or in the hands of, the inbounder.

Is it really clear and I'm just muddying the waters? It just doesn't seem to be cut-and-dried to me from the rules that have been quoted so far.

And just to make my position perfectly clear, I think you're right in that the NCAA position is that you can't have a 3-second violation during a throw-in. But it just isn't spelled out very well in the rulebook.

Now I know you're just trolling.

If team control ended when you say it does how could you have a 3 second violaton?

In any event what you wrote here is wrong. Team control applies until the throw-in is completed, which does not happen until the ball is controlled by a player on court. A 3 sec violation does not apply during the throw-in. You cannot arbitrarily decree that the team is no longer in control for a throw-in adjacent to the frontcourt when the ball is released.

Well, you can, but you would be as wrong as if you decreed that team control ends when the player lifted his left foot.

Bye.

I swear I'm not. I just want to get it all straight in my head.

I never said team control ended. We all know that there is team control for the throwing team until the ball is controlled on the court (or until the ball becomes dead).

Once the throw-in is released, the team is no longer in control for a throw-in are they? How can they be? They've already thrown it in. That's my point; not that control ends. But they're not in control OOB for the throw-in. And the rule says you can't call it while they're in control for the throw-in OOB adjacent to the frontcourt.

They no longer have control for the throw-in. Is that distinction simply insane?

I think team control for the throw-in ends when the throw-in player lifts his left foot.

It's either that or it ends when the rule book sez it ends: when a player controls the passed ball on court.

You decide.

Now you're trolling. That's not my point and you know it. Fine. I'll ignore the wording and just answer based on what I know it should be.

*The wording* is precise, consistent & unambiguous.

I suppose your point is the rule is not clear enough. You have decided to misread it to re-define when the team control ends on the throw-in. You cannot muster an argument other than "it's confusing to me".

Using that argument I propose you change your re-definition to when the throw-in player lifts his left foot. It's just as logical.

AAAAUUUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! No. That's not what I'm saying at all. And I've already said a couple of times that I'm not saying that. We all know that team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounding team. And it continues until the opponent secures control or until the ball becomes dead or until a try or tap is released. I get it.

The rule says "A team in control of the ball for a throw-in adjacent to a front-court boundary line may not be called for a three-second violation."

You stop reading at "in control of the ball". My point is that if all they cared about was team control, which is how you're reading it, then why did they include the phrase "for a throw-in"? Why not just say "A team in control of the ball may not be called for a 3-second violation before the throw-in has ended"? That's what you're claiming the rule says -- and what I readily grant is what the rule should say -- so why did they use the phrase "in control for a throw-in"? Could it possibly mean "while the inbounder is holding the ball"?

No, that is exactly how I am NOT reading it. They care about team control during the throw-in. They care about it then because that is exactly when the 3 second rule is suspended. No, it could not. Just as it could not possibly mean "while the inbounder has not lifted his left foot". I say that because "in control for a throw-in" is equivalent to "before the throw-in has ended". Why are they equivalent? Because team control for the throw-in ends exactly when the throw-in ends.

Neither of these is in any way equivalent to "while the inbounder is holding the ball".