Grabbing Jerseys

[crazy voyager]

[maybe i misread the post. i think it was crazy voyager. i thought his "unsporting" reference was to a T, but it doesnt look like his post actually says that.]

Remember, I'm a FIBA ref, you are probably confused by the rule refrences, you can PM me with more exact info about what you didn't get and I'll sort it out for you

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Look who showed up again just in time for the season!

BTW, I agree that grabbing the shirt is an intentional foul ANYTIME during the game ANYWHERE on the court.

Do you also call an intentional foul when B1 grabs A1's arm, shoulder, etc. or when A1 is going up for a shot and B1 fouls then continues to hang on to ensure A1 can't complete the shot? If not, why? If you're calling an intentional on a jersey grab, you'll need to call all of these as intentional in order to be consistent. None of them are accidental. The result is the same. Why is the jersey more holy than any other part of the player?

The intentional fouls it not meant to be use just becasue it was not accidental. It is to stop a foul from neutralizing an obvious advantageous position or to stop a foul just to stop the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Do you also call an intentional foul when B1 grabs A1's arm, shoulder, etc. or when A1 is going up for a shot and B1 fouls then continues to hang on to ensure A1 can't complete the shot?

Yes.

I don't think that the FED has changed their focus on intentional fouls one bit since they explained them in another POE in the 2000-01 rulebook. The points that the FED made then included- verbatim:

Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind.
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress.

The FED laid out in that POE exactly how they wanted intentional fouls called. They have issued nothing since then that would change those points.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes.

I don't think that the FED has changed their focus on intentional fouls one bit since they explained them in another POE in the 2000-01 rulebook. The points that the FED made then included- verbatim:

Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind.
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress.

The FED laid out in that POE exactly how they wanted intentional fouls called. They have issued nothing since then that would change those points.

I agree in the general sense but can imagine a jersey grab that is no more deserving of an intentional foul than the alternatives I've described. I was merely pointing out that the non-accidental nature of the foul is not relevant to the call and that there are cases of contact more deserving that never get call becasue they don't have a black/white edict tied to them.

I again ask (no to you but others who hold the jersey grab = intentional view), would a player grabbing/holding an opponents arm be an intentional. If not, why?

[cdaref]

I dont know that it makes a difference, but...

To me, wrapping an arm up, though intentional, is just a foul. Grabbing jersey is "cheating." I know, I know, grabbing an arm is "not a basketball play" but some reason, maybe just in my own mind, grabbing jersey (a serious hold of the jersey, not a minor tug) just seems unsporting.

I still think in general an average grab of the jersey is a holding foul. A more egregious grab of the jersey could be an intentional.

I am not arguing what the rules ARE just how I percieve the nature of the offense on a scale from not so significant to more significant.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes.

I don't think that the FED has changed their focus on intentional fouls one bit since they explained them in another POE in the 2000-01 rulebook. The points that the FED made then included- verbatim:

Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind.
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress.

The FED laid out in that POE exactly how they wanted intentional fouls called. They have issued nothing since then that would change those points.

Camron, I probably call more intentional and technical fouls than any other referee in the state. I just don't care if anyone likes it or not. I'm not trying to win any popularity contests. My state doesn't give coaches any say at all in postseason selection, so I'm not losing any votes there.
I just follow one simply guideline.
If the actions of a player fit the text of the rule or what the POE from 2000-01 describes, I called an intentional.

It says right there in black and white that grabbing/holding the jersey must be deemed an intentional foul. So, I've called it that way for the past five years without fail. Whenever a coach has complained, I've simply told him that I always call jersey holding intentional. That is consistency, and they accept that.
From now on I will also be certain to enforce the following from the current season's POE on intentional fouls:
"A. Anytime in the game. Acts that neutralize an opponent’s obvious advantageous position and must be deemed intentional include:
• Excessive contact on any player attempting a shot
• Grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored
• Grabbing and holding a player from behind or away from the ball
These are “non-basketball” plays and must be considered intentional fouls anytime they occur during a game."

Of course, I already called most of this before.
The first one is an intentional foul even if the player is not attempting a shot, the committee just wants to make sure that we don't let the offender off easy because the opponent is already getting FTs for the try. If someone causes excessive contact, I'm punishing that.
The second point was stressed by the NCAA a season ago or so. It made sense to me. I've called it when I've seen it, and not had an issue over it once.
The third is also fairly obvious. It's intentional no matter if he grabs the head, neck, arm, leg, etc.

For some reason holding the jersey wasn't specifically repeated this year. Perhaps we are doing a good job already on that issue. I highly doubt that the NFHS wishes to reverse their earlier position on this, so I'll continue to call that intentional.

[williebfree]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
From now on, I will also be certain to enforce the following from the current season's POE on intentional fouls:
"A. Anytime in the game. Acts that neutralize an opponent�s obvious advantageous position and must be deemed intentional include:...
� Grabbing and holding a player from behind or away from the ball
These are �non-basketball� plays and must be considered intentional fouls anytime they occur during a game."

If "basketball sense" is not applied to this situation, the "literal, book-smart" officials could "justify" calling an intentional foul on a players that "box out" an opponent by extenting their arms behind.

[Nevadaref]

How so? The player doing the holding is not behind the opponent, nor are they considered away from the ball, since they are attempting to rebound it.