Hello all,
I would like to throw this out and get your feed back.
This summer I was approached to work some Minor League Pro Games, you know ABA & Pro-AM. I though it was a good experience for me. I was thinking of working the leagues more going forward. So I go to my association meeting last week and start to hear talk of a very good Varsity official who has started officiating for the USBL. He has now been kind of black-balled. The assigner will not give him any games, on any level. They tell him “you go do that Pro stuff”. So I’m thinking what’s the big deal? Now I have come to find out there is a small faction (kind of under ground) of HS Officials that are working these Pro Leagues. They tell me if I decide to continue working on Pro league games I can not tell any of the other HS Officials or the same thing could happen to me. The thing I don’t understand is, I met several Division 2 & 3 college officials that are working the ABA & USBL and they do not have to hide it. So what is the hang up with the HS Officials?
What do you guys think?

Well, IMO I worked a HS game with a college official once and he told me during the pre-game that "we are going to officiate this like a college game. If they take it to the basket and get fouled (his exact words) and the basket doesn't fall then we have a foul. If the shot goes, then it isn't a foul."

I didn't agree and simply called the same game that I had been calling since I the beginning of the season.

I think that some of the collegiate/pro officials may do some things like this example which in turn makes their association black ball them or make them choose between one or the other. I am not classifying all officials that do college and HS like this as I know there are many of you that do both and I am sure that you all do good jobs. But, there is one for sure that I know of that wants to incorporate college mechanics/calls with HS mechanics/calls. They are two completely different games.

Jealousy could be one answer. Or, perhaps the association members have had bad experiences with pro league refs "looking down" on them. Or, maybe this ref has been black-balled for some other reason, and he's just blaming it on his working a pro league. Who knows?

I have found though, for whatever reason, it's hard to talk about your accomplishments to people who have not met those same accomplishments and levels. It's easy to talk about varsity games to other varsity refs, but once you become a "college ref", and you start talking about it in you HS association, the "career HS refs" do tend to resent it; some more than others. Maybe the jump from college to pro isn't as great, and those refs already understand the issues involved of moving up, so it's not as big a deal to them. I have been to many college camps where they touch on this issue a little; for example, you don't want to go back to your HS association and say, "Well, in my college camp they said to do this..."

I don't know if going underground is the right answer, but don't talk about higher level games to your HS partners, or at your HS meetings. If your HS assignor offers you a game when you have a higher level game assigned, just say you can't work that night, you already have a game. I don't think you have to deny anything or be dishonest, but just don't mention it so you don't come across as better than the others.

I think there is a really big misconception that college officials swallow their whistles. I have been to many college camps and I have never been told to not make calls. What is said a lot is to get plays right. I watch a lot of college ball and I see a lot of fouls called on made baskets. When I talk to officials at D1 levels, they talk more about getting plays right, they do not talk about not blowing the whistle. I had a long conversation with a D1 official last night and he was talking more about tape study and learning from other officials. He did not once talk about not making calls.

Peace

This is one of my pet peeves. I have worked HS games where my partner wears his CCA jacket out on the floor, instead of his HS jacket. This tells me he's not ready to work this game, or somehow this game isn't as important as his college games. That's not fair to his partner(s) or the kids. It's the same thing when you walk into your grade school game and talk to your partner about that great HS rivalry game you've got this Fri. night. You're just showing you're not ready for this game.

Sure, when you move up, you want people to know; it's natural to want to brag a little. But most times it's best to just brag to the people who are on the same level as you to avoid any unwanted resentment.

The problem with the CCA Jackets is not that people are working college. I have known officials to wear the jackets when they do not even work any college ball. So it is not just college officials that wear the jackets during HS games, it is a lot of people who will never see a college floor.

Peace

I understand; I think the same jacket is also available without the CCA logo. But, why would anyone want to wear a CCA jacket to a HS game?

In the couple of instances I've run across, the other official has been a college ref as well. In one case, the guy was trying during halftime to get me to sign up for his summer camp. Hmmm, what about going over what happened in this game?...

I do not tell officials what to do. I am just not going to support those officials that do wear the CCA Jackets to opportunities. I might make a comment about it and I will leave it at that. I have spoken at camps and I scream at the top of my lungs these jackets are totally improper during HS games.

Peace

I seemed to remember we were on the exact same page on this.

So that was you I heard in the distance this summer? I thought it was my wife yelling and wondering where the hell I was... ;)

There's another issue here that has nothing to do with what jacket you wear or how you call the game.

If you have a college schedule you are not as available to your HS assignor. Some HS assignors do not like their people blocking out dates. Also, most officials who work both HS & college will usually not block HS dates with their college assignor. So the HS assignor has to understand he'll get turnbacks. Most won't accept this although some do. The way around this is to work HS games with an assignor who's happy to have college officials on their staff.

That's funny, I had that same exact speech from a partner who also works D-1 games once. He said, "we aren't having any 'and-ones' tonight." I just looked at him and said, "we work the game that's in the gym we're in. Tonight it's a high school gym." He didn't argue, maybe because I am a higher rated official in our association than he is. The game went fine and he called it appropriately.

That being said, that is the only negative experience I can remember along those lines. I work many HS games with partners who also do college ball and 99% of the time they are great. They are generally talented enough to adjust their game to the level at which they are working.

Z

The first thing I was told going into my HS assosciation was not to talk about my college and NBA reffing experience, it will just get you shunned.

I do believe though that you ref differently at each level you work at. I would be less apt to have an and one in a pro game, when, even with the same amount of contact I would have an and one in a HS game. Players can play through so much more the higher up you get. I ref according to skill level. You won't ever see me bring my pro and college mechanics to a high school floor. I try very hard to seperate.

This is a great question. I like RefTN's answer. But the question is, Is it worth it to work the semi-pro? Will they give you a good enough schedule? Will you always have a schedule. In most cases the answer is no. So stick with the HS. But if you know you will get 30 games and the pay is worth it then go with the semi-pro. Weigh your options and go with your gut.

Tim I agree with the scheduling issue. Good point. Now I pose the question, what if working HS ball is just a stepping stone in where you ultimately want to be?

In my eyes, I take the semi-pro games because it is better ball and a step closer to where I want to be. For others it might not be the case, it might just mean, extra money and something more prestigious they can brag about, but to me it is that much closer to making it to the big dance. I could care less if the money is great or horrible, or if it would cause me to have less games. There are always games out there that need to be reffed, just some more prominent than others.

Congratulations.

College and NBA reffing experience, eh?

And all that since July 20th of this year?

Amazing!

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...6+pagenumber=4

According to that thread, as admitted by yourself on July 20th., your total basketball officiating experience was 65 middle school games, no high school varsity games, one college camp and no actual college league games, and some AAU and summer rec league games. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Just wondering -what exactly comprises your "college and NBA reffing experience" since then? What semi-pro league are you working in now?

I think the bottom line here is that HS Assigner dont want officials mixing the two leagues. We have been told not to use college mechanics and/or rules because this is HS. HS Assigner dont like officials closing out dates or turning in schedules due to officials college schedules because the assigner know that the more college games an official get, the less HS games he will do. I am currently doing a lot of college scrimmages and have been to several college camps thinking it may help me get my high school schedule a little better, but in fact once the HS assigner knows you are "attempting" to persue a colleged officiating career, it can black ball you on the HS level. So what I do, it when I am doing HS, that what I focus on and dont even bring up any college stuff and stick to Federation Mechanics and rules.

I'm thankful for my association!!!
 

there are 4 of us that call college games and we are welcomed with open arms. We are all in the top 5 in our association and are asked to help with all the illustrations on the floor for rotations and such!! They know we are the ones that usually go to the camps and get the new knowledge and are up on all the new rules, so they don't shun us at all, they pick our brain about things and actually use us to talk through many different situations!! They ask us for our scratch dates and we go from there, the only problem is that the ones that don't get a lot of high school games want to do a lot of gradeschool (which pays $80 for 2 games) but those guys are expected to turn in that gradeschool game if the high school assignor calls and asks them to do a game for him!! They say "what about the college guys, you don't make them turn in their college games", but there are not many of them, so it's not that bad, but you always have people like that! Just ignore them and go on...

When I first got in to Officiating I never thought about ever working pro. My thinking was working my way through HS ranks and then take it to the next level, college. But after working with and talking to these officials that do work Pro. I started thinking this could be another avenue to take in my growth as an official. I do know that when I started out as a cadet our instructors made a big point of telling us not to watch NBA Officiating. That is not real Officiating but just entertainment. But I found out for my self this summer that these Pro Officials approach there job just as professionally and in many cases more so then your average HS official. The way they study the game and there understanding of the play that are being run is far greater then anything my association has tried to teach us. And there is less politics involved. Now I am not saying that one is better then the other. But I would think that a Ref. that is trying to elevate his/her level of officiating would be welcomed not turned away.

Tim,
As far as being able to get a schedule. The ABA & USBL season runs about the same as the HS season. And a Ref can get a good schedule.
Many of the college Officials said they use these leagues to supplement there college schedules. The Pro-am is run in the summer, and there are not as many games but they will keep you working during that time period. The pay is ok too.

That's right jurassic, I went and reffed NBA players and college players in August

Well, I don't think that you would have to worry about ever getting shunned if you mentioned that at your hs association meeting. You might get laughed at, though, if you tried to claim that as actual "college and NBA reffing experience". Most people think of something like "college and NBA reffing experience" as doing actual league games at those levels, not the rec-league summer type of game. Jmo.

Not to pile on refTN...but be careful with this type of philosophy.

The game you are doing that night...is the biggest game of the night for those players...and should be for you also.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way...if not, disregard.

There is a stigma is some associations abou doing something out of the ordinary. Everybody thinks that the logical progression is rec, then HS, then college, if you want to do something outside that it does not fit the norm.

It has taken about 10 years in our association but we have convinced people that using NBA rules and reffing Pro-AM, ABA, WNBA, NBA is not a bad thing.

For me I the experiences I have had officiating the Pro-AM,Pro-AM nationals, a couple of NBA and WNBA scrimmages has made me a better HS official.

This is where a "HS" ref can ref great ball players. I wont get a schedule in the Mountain West this year but I have reffed some of their players. I doubt I will ever work a Final Four but have officiated several Final Four Players. I will never work an NBA final but have refereed 3 or 4 of the best players to have ever played the game.

You get to see plays and moves that most HS kids will never ever be able to pull off (especially where I live)

My advice use these experiences to the betterment of your game. If you use them to brag you will be shunned. Sometimes there are paradoxes and politics that play into officiating assignments.

I know of a couple of officials who was worked Pro-AM and the Pro-am Nationals (including the finals), and NBA scrimmages, who did a great job in these games but could not get a 1A girls varsity game.... Thats all int he past now but you have to learn the political game...

I didn't mean it that way RookieDude. I take every game that I do as the biggest game at that time. It did kinda sound like that though.

Jurassic, my bad, in order to gain experience doesn't mean working a good amount of games with pro and college players at any time. I need to be in the middle of Rupp Arena with a packed house and do that for about 10 years to even have gained experience.

If I was a betting man, I would bet you are that ref that baits coaches into getting T's. Almost every time you talk on here (or maybe it is just to me) and you get in a discussion (not an argument)you try to find a way to pick at that person. I have done a hell of alot of work since July 20th. I have no doubt in my HS and NBA knowledge, whether it be rules or judgement. You and I disagree alot and that's fine, just keep disagreeing with my positions and not attacking what I have and have not done. I am never going to post on here that I have done something when I have not, my ego is in check enough to know that there are guys on here who have done more higher level games and on a bigger stage than I have. I am not going to try and "one up" you or anybody else on the forum. You better bet I will challenge your position on plays though, just so I can learn and get all the possible perspectives.

I look forward to the next heated DISCUSSION we have and maybe we won't berate the skills that we do or do not have or the experience we do or do not have.

No disrespect. Just had to get that off my chest.

I am lucky enough to belong to two associations that actually encourage officials to enhance their game and move up to the next level. I am not a college official, but those who are in my groups are there in large part due to the associations, groups that assign games in such a way to encourage their officials to reach potential and also to encourage officials to go to camps over the summer. The result: the collegiate officials we have are very loyal to the organization and continue to work games and help develop and mentor the next group of official.

I realize the human tendencies toward jealousy and such, but blackballing any official who has worked pro or college games at the HS level I think is a huge mistake. Why should anyone be punished for simply trying to get better? And I also don't get the hostility toward NBA officials from college and particularly HS guys. They are well ahead of everything that happens at the lower level in terms of mechanics, and my experience this summer at Coast to Coast has tremendously improved my ability as an official in the subsequent games that I have worked. At the HS level, particularly for us younger officials, we stand to benefit a ton from the knowledge and experience of college officials, and the experience of working higher level ball in the summer. To blackball people who simply want to improve as officials makes no sense to me.

Sorry, RefTN, but you have already posted on here about doing things that you haven't done.

RefTN, you also don't have a clue what kind of official I am- or was. Don't assume anything about me, especially trying to say that I bait coaches or nonsense like that. Either take what I post on here as maybe having some value, or reject it as being completely useless. That's always your, or anybody else's choice.

It kinda bothers me if somebody on here tries to intimate that they are something that they obviously aren't. So far, <b>you</b> have tried to intimate that you're a member of the SEC staff, and that you've got "college and NBA reffing experience"- your words. You're telling people about taking your "semi-pro games". You're giving out advice about how to call contact differently in a pro game than in a high school game. Quite frankly, I find this completely amazing coming from a 19 year old college student who has never done a high school varsity game in his life, let alone an actual college or semi-pro game. Good players competing in a summer rec league setting is nothing like the competition found in an actual, structured meaningful regular-season game

I admire your dedication and the work that you are obviously willing to do to become a top level official. You obviously love what you're doing too. Lord knows we need good, young officials. Please don't try to pass yourself off as something that you haven't developed into yet though. It could end up retarding your development greatly rather than enhancing it. And, please don't be dismissive of high school officials either. There are some absolutely great officials out there doing that level that do not want the headaches or to put in the time and traveling that is involved with the so-called higher levels.

No disrespect to you either, believe it or not. Jmo, but your career might advance a helluva quicker if you did more listening and less pontificating.

Feel free to ignore me though. After all, I ain't in the.....wait for it.....SEC. :)

Our association is very supportive of anyone who has something other than HS basketball in their lives. Whether it's working a college schedule or whatever, our assignor totally works with people's availability to get everyone as many games as possible. As I said, 99% of those who work high levels are a great credit to our association and great mentors to the less experienced officials.

Of course, we also have a couple of buttonheads at that level who try to give a bad name to the rest of them by being stupid. One of our D-1 officials was working with one of our excellent high school officials (who happens to be rated higher than this college official) and the college official pulls a check out of his wallet and says, "wanna see what a D-1 check looks like" and shows him a game check for almost a thousand dollars. What a doinkus.

Z

[/B][/QUOTE]Sorry, RefTN, but you have already posted on here about doing things that you haven't done.

RefTN, you also don't have a clue what kind of official I am- or was. Don't assume anything about me, especially trying to say that I bait coaches or nonsense like that. Either take what I post on here as maybe having some value, or reject it as being completely useless. That's always your, or anybody else's choice.

It kinda bothers me if somebody on here tries to intimate that they are something that they obviously aren't. So far, <b>you</b> have tried to intimate that you're a member of the SEC staff, and that you've got "college and NBA reffing experience"- your words. You're telling people about taking your "semi-pro games". You're giving out advice about how to call contact differently in a pro game than in a high school game. Quite frankly, I find this completely amazing coming from a 19 year old college student who has never done a high school varsity game in his life, let alone an actual college or semi-pro game. Good players competing in a summer rec league setting is nothing like the competition found in an actual, structured meaningful regular-season game

I admire your dedication and the work that you are obviously willing to do to become a top level official. You obviously love what you're doing too. Lord knows we need good, young officials. Please don't try to pass yourself off as something that you haven't developed into yet though. It could end up retarding your development greatly rather than enhancing it. And, please don't be dismissive of high school officials either. There are some absolutely great officials out there doing that level that do not want the headaches or to put in the time and traveling that is involved with the so-called higher levels.

No disrespect to you either, believe it or not. Jmo, but your career might advance a helluva quicker if you did more listening and less pontificating.

Feel free to ignore me though. After all, I ain't in the.....wait for it.....SEC. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

I Never said that I was part of the SEC staff, I said I was in the SEC development program, that is alot different than being on the SEC staff. I also guess it would be better to say I have reffed NBA and college players. I guess I don't have the term EXPERIENCE.

I said I would TAKE semi-pro games over HS games.

I didn't give advice about how to call contact differently between HS and and pro ball, I just said I call it differently.

And as far as trying to dismiss HS officials. If I have done that then I am sorry. I know there are people who have their lives set and just do HS games for the love of the game and don't care to do anything but, and I totally respect that. I have guys in my assosciation that I have become great friends with that are just like that. It is just that right out of the gate of my officiating career I was thrown towards college and NBA officials, so I yet to see the side and total understanding of alot of HS philosophy and thought process.

Much love. You said was reffing. Have you retired?

Gotta give you one thing refTN, you aint having any problem deaing with that crusty old b@stard JR - you are taking whatever he gives ya and hanging in there.

Pretty impressive, eh Nate?

Much love. You said was reffing. Have you retired? [/B][/QUOTE]I'm retired on-court until Santa brings me 2 new knees. They're on the way. After they're installed, and if everything goes well, I hope to be able to do a few more football and basketball games before I hang my whistle up for good. If not, well, I've had a heckuva ride anyway for the last 46 years and I've enjoyed every minute of it. I'm in the twilight of a mediocre career anyway. :D The games that I'll take in basketball though, if I'm lucky enough to be able to come back, will be JV level and under only- to help train new officials. I'm a firm believer that older officials have to know when to step aside and let the younger officials do their thing. Meanwhile, I stay involved as our association's assignor, and I help out in other areas like training, evaluation, handling complaints, etc- and tonight.....whoopee...marking NFHS Part 1 exams.

Seriously, good luck in trying to attain your officiating goals. I started at 16 and reffed my way through college too. Please try to remember though that school really does come first. For most of us, officiating is an avocation, not a vocation.

I'm retired on-court until Santa brings me 2 new knees. They're on the way. After they're installed, and if everything goes well, I hope to be able to do a few more football and basketball games before I hang my whistle up for good. If not, well, I've had a heckuva ride anyway for the last 46 years and I've enjoyed every minute of it. I'm in the twilight of a mediocre career anyway. :D The games that I'll take in basketball though, if I'm lucky enough to be able to come back, will be JV level and under only- to help train new officials. I'm a firm believer that older officials have to know when to step aside and let the younger officials do their thing. Meanwhile, I stay involved as our association's assignor, and I help out in other areas like training, evaluation, handling complaints, etc- and tonight.....whoopee...marking NFHS Part 1 exams.

Seriously, good luck in trying to attain your officiating goals. I started at 16 and reffed my way through college too. Please try to remember though that school really does come first. For most of us, officiating is an avocation, not a vocation. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah I could have used that advice about school two months ago. Now because of me studying my rulebooks more than my math books I might lose my scholarship. It is just so hard for me to put school first.

Yeah I could have used that advice about school two months ago. Now because of me studying my rulebooks more than my math books I might lose my scholarship. It is just so hard for me to put school first. [/B][/QUOTE]Yeah, I remember cutting classes too to go and ref games instead. That wasn't too bright on my part at that time either.

Good luck on the scholarship thing. You'd better damn well put school first. Or else. :eek:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[B][QUOTE]I'm retired on-court until Santa brings me 2 new knees. They're on the way. After they're installed, and if everything goes well, I hope to be able to do a few more football and basketball games before I hang my whistle up for good.

Did the Dr. give you the lecture about they will last longer if you don't do that? Does the Doc know what you are planning?

Yes and yes. Apparently, there's something fairly new out that he's looking into. The plan right now is to do them both at the same time. I'm gonna watch.

We're still negotiating about football.