Sideline Warning?--IHSA Rules Meeting - Page 2

Junker · #16 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 09:06am

Here's my take. First of all, I have talked to coaches on many occasions about staying in the box (here in Iowa, it's not a factor in boys as they have to stay seated). I think the formal warning gets away from the fact that the NFHS has this as a POE. If it is a POE they obviously want it enforced. I don't think giving coaches more rope with which to hang themselves is going to help the problem. I think it would be better if officials called the T whenever called for early in the season and the coaches will get the message. As they say, give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

JRutledge · #17 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 09:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
Here's my take. First of all, I have talked to coaches on many occasions about staying in the box (here in Iowa, it's not a factor in boys as they have to stay seated). I think the formal warning gets away from the fact that the NFHS has this as a POE. If it is a POE they obviously want it enforced. I don't think giving coaches more rope with which to hang themselves is going to help the problem. I think it would be better if officials called the T whenever called for early in the season and the coaches will get the message. As they say, give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

If a T solved the problem, then this would not be a POE. It is obvious something needs to be done and maybe this will give officials the support to keep coaches in the box. The problem with calling this a technical foul all the time, the coaches would use the excuse they were not doing anything wrong. The warning will give coaches one free chance to correct the situations (it works in football btw) without affecting the game or giving the perception it will affect the game. The warning will be public and if not complied with, then the coach only has himself/herself to blame when their team gets penalized for their actions.

Peace

truerookie · #18 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 09:30am

HMM, this coaching box thing sounds familiar to me. Where did I here this issue before? I know ME! Just a Rookie, I have not gotten game management piece yet. Is this not part of game management? Inquiring minds wants to know. I remember I brought the subject up about coaches being up in the box while the clock is running. Coaches up while clock is running they will wonder thus, everything else will happen i.e warning being issued; technicals being assessed.

Junker · #19 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 09:43am

Rut,
I don't disagree with what you're saying at all (playing a little devil's advocate here), but if there isn't a warning in the rules book, why should there be a warning (I know the board has had many discussions like this)? If the coaching box were enforced by everyone as it is written, there shouldn't be any excuse for the coach breaking the rule and the warning needing to be issued.

Jurassic Referee · #20 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 10:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by truerookie
HMM, this coaching box thing sounds familiar to me. Where did I here this issue before? I know ME! Just a Rookie, I have not gotten game management piece yet. Is this not part of game management? Inquiring minds wants to know. I remember I brought the subject up about coaches being up in the box while the clock is running. Coaches up while clock is running they will wonder thus, everything else will happen i.e warning being issued; technicals being assessed.

Rook, go to whomever you report to----> assignor/evaluator/trainer/rules interpreter/head honcho,etc. Ask them how they want you to call the coaching box. Then watch the experienced officials in your area and see how they are actually calling it. Iow, don't be "that guy".

Any advice that you receive from this forum on some subjects may not be necessarily applicable or relevant to your particular area.

JRutledge · #21 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
Rut,
I don't disagree with what you're saying at all (playing a little devil's advocate here), but if there isn't a warning in the rules book, why should there be a warning (I know the board has had many discussions like this)? If the coaching box were enforced by everyone as it is written, there shouldn't be any excuse for the coach breaking the rule and the warning needing to be issued.

If you have ever read anything I say on this board, I completely believe in the philosophy of states and organizations doing whatever they want to handle situations. I personally do not care what the rulebook says on this issue, the coaching box is an "optional" thing in the first place. If a state wants to have the box and help keep the usage of this rule, I feel any state has the right to decide how to enforce it based on a philosophy. Now the IHSA also told us that if this rule is not enforced properly, we might not get playoff games or our playoff standing would be affected. This is what they came up with (maybe not on their own) to handle this situation. Whether I agree or not is not my issue. I just thought it was an interesting way to handle the enforcement of the rule. Also I have seen how in football we were instructed to handle sidelines and we were told to use sideline warnings for all kinds of conduct issues. It is amazing how a sideline warning in football changes the attitude of the coaches.

Peace

Junker · #22 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 11:18am

LIke I said, I don't disagree with the method of handling coaches. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it and if it makes a difference on how the coaching box is enforced. Is this a written adaptation then or something just discussed at meetings? As an official, I think I'd want it in writing so that the coaches know it's coming.

RookieDude · #23 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 11:43am

Speaking of football and sideline warnings...
did ya see the SJ on Monday Night Football (Rams vs. Colts) trip over, what looked like a players legs, as he was running down the sideline?

The replay showed the official tripping over the "sideline player's legs" and landing on his behind. The official then reached for his flag, while on the ground, and threw it.

The white hat said they couldn't be sure if it was a player or a "ballboy"...so they picked up the flag.

Hmmmmm, I'll bet my last Fox 40 that someone on this board has tripped over a Coach, cheerleader, mascot, etc. that was standing on or partially on the Basketball court.

Stories?

JRutledge · #24 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 12:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
LIke I said, I don't disagree with the method of handling coaches. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it and if it makes a difference on how the coaching box is enforced. Is this a written adaptation then or something just discussed at meetings? As an official, I think I'd want it in writing so that the coaches know it's coming.

It was in the PowerPoint Presentation that is enough for me. Coaches never attend these meetings anyway, I am sure some coach will have never heard of a team control foul the first couple games. All I know is they told us this is how they want it called or our playoff assignments might be affected. So that is enough for me.

Peace

SeanFitzRef · #25 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 01:02pm

JRut,

Thanks for that heads up. I haven't gone to the Rules mtg yet (Ignatius next Monday), but I have heard that this was going to be brought up. The CPS games are going to be hilarious this season with the enforcement of this rule affecting playoff standing!! Some coaches won't know what hit 'em.

IMO, this will be something that should be addressed in the pregame. I like to keep it brief, so just a reminder to the coaches to 'be mindful of the coaching box' should suffice.

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:05 PM]

truerookie · #26 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 01:04pm

Then watch the experienced officials in your area and see how they are actually calling it. Iow, don't be "that guy".

JR, I have been watching the experienced officials in my area and it is like kids at recess. Coaches wondering; at half-court (not substituting); on the base-line; two steps on the court. The coaches are all over the place. I have gone so far to ask a few why they do not enforce the box. Reply: If they are not on my back I do not care. The preception to me is they are limiting their responibilities to the action within the boundary lines. This is frustrating because a Rookie is applying the rule where others do not bother. Thus becoming "that guy". I have to admit until the state start coming down hard on these (minor oversights)of the rules it will not change.

All replies are good and the forum is relevant to development.

ChuckElias · #27 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 02:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by truerookie
JR, I have been watching the experienced officials in my area and it is like kids at recess. Coaches wondering

What are these coaches wondering about? When I was a kid, I was too busy playing during recess to stand around and wonder about stuff.

Jurassic Referee · #28 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by truerookie
JR, I have been watching the experienced officials in my area and it is like kids at recess. Coaches wondering; at half-court (not substituting); on the base-line; two steps on the court. The coaches are all over the place. I have gone so far to ask a few why they do not enforce the box. Reply: If they are not on my back I do not care. The preception to me is they are limiting their responibilities to the action within the boundary lines. This is frustrating because a Rookie is applying the rule where others do not bother. Thus becoming "that guy".

Don't be "that guy"!!!

Rook, there are battles to be fought--- but this ain't one of them. From a political standpoint, you could severely retard your advancement curve in your area if you stray away from the way other officials are handling the box in practice.

Consider:
1) Everyone- players, coaches, officials- wants a uniform application of the rules. Coaches need to know what they can or cannot do. If the rest of your compadres are letting 'em roam as long as they aren't yapping, and you T them up for doing the exact same thing, it's pretty much guaranteed that you're gonna get a lot of practice in your game management skills. Read- major, big time arguments.

2) The officials aren't really limiting their "responsibilities to the action within the boundary line". It is more likely that they have made a collective decision as to what actions they will allow outside the boundary lines. They aren't really shirking their responsibilities- they are defining those responsibilities internally. That might be opposite to what the FED has put out in their POE, but it certainly won't be the first time that officials' groups have decided not to follow a POE to the letter. Iow, it ain't necessarily a "bad" thing.

Don't let these things get to you. In some areas, you just have to go with the flow. Relax and chill.

icallfouls · #29 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 03:31pm

I think that the idea of a "documented" warning is a good idea. Treat it much like a delay of game warning, one for each team before incurring the penalty. It puts the responsibility on the coaches to be more aware of their location.

So now I will put it to you this way....
You are working the big game of the year (NCAA Final, State Final, Adult league final, 5th grade final), both coaches have been warned about being out of the coaching box, it is a one point game in the fourth quarter. A big call (with the 'and 1') goes against one of the teams and the coach (not going crazy) is just standing outside the edge of the box more out of disbelief. Are you going to call this? How about in a blowout?

My point is not the call, but rather, that the only thing that has changed is that the coaches are now getting a formal warning which can readily be traced in the event of a dispute. This will certainly take away the "I didn't even get a warning" defense. BTW, that defense is one of my favorites.

[Edited by icallfouls on Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:34 PM]

RookieDude · #30 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 18, 2005, 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by truerookie
This is frustrating because a Rookie is applying the rule where others do not bother. Thus becoming "that guy".

Don't get to frustrated rook...there are plenty of other things, that actually happen on the court, that you will get to deal with.

As you know, JR is a pretty wise ol' dude, if he says do what the experienced officials do...you might want to take heed. If there is a battle to be fought over this type of "stuff", let the leaders fight it and you just follow for awhile...maybe someday you'll be leading the charge.

I have been watching the experienced officials in my area and it is like kids at recess. Coaches wondering; at half-court (not substituting); on the base-line; two steps on the court. The coaches are all over the place.

Not to be picking on you to much rook...but, it sounds like you are watching the coaches more than the experienced officials.
Check out the veteran's mechanics, court presence, calls, transitions, attitudes, etc...steal what you like, and disregard what doesn't fit your personality or style.

Rook, you're doing the right things now, IMO, because you're asking questions...keep it up.

Edit: Sheesh, JR, I guess I'm a slow typer...by the time I finished my opinion...it looks like you gave similar advice.

[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:42 PM]