Just as A1 and B1 are each firmly holding the ball, but before a held ball is adjudged, A1 lifts each foot and lowers each foot to the floor in an attempt to wrench the ball free.

What is next?

Well, I am assuming that A1 had the ball first as A indicates offense. So, B came in in an attempt to create a held ball, A moved both feet and we have a travel on A.

like
 

what would you call as A1 drives to the basket and starts a jump stop but B1 reaches in and also holds the ball as A1 starts the jump stop and when he lands still both are holding -- I have a held ball here.

The same would go for your scenario -- usually if both teams have possesion of the ball i call a jump ball if one of them violates while both are holding -- like a player with the ball gets held up and looses his balance and falls -- both players hold on while he falls (technically thats a travel on him) but its a held ball.

the only time i do not is if one player steps out of bounds during this then i would call him oob.

I think a little preventative officiating is to go with a jump. The way I understand the play is that both A and B had a grip on the ball, ref is probably about to call for a held ball when A travels. Which came first and what caused what? IMO, the held ball, each player tugging caused the travel. I'd probably go with a held ball.

Sounds like they each had a very firm grip on the ball. Sounds to me like neither one could get sole control without exerting undue force.

Yeah, Chuck,...sorta.
The firm grip happened, but the determination of "undue force" wasn't quite made.
mick

Jump ball immediately. It seems like it took a second or two for all of that to happen.

I agree
 

I believe you would call the held ball before the travel. Because they're can be no violation if a held ball occurs (unless its an unsportsmanlike foul).

If there's been no held-ball yet, you only have a travel.

have to agree with most!!
 

i would go with the held ball, sounds like they both had a good grip and forced A to travel.... I just think "would he of traveled if team B wouldn't of had hold of the ball?"

Re: have to agree with most!!
 

Isn't that just good defense, grabbing hold of the ball? I reverse your logic and say that the good defense caused player A to travel. It was clear in the original situation that not enough had happened yet to warrant a held-ball call.

Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

His initial post said they where "firmly" holding the ball. I would get in there with the JUMP ASAP!

Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

It also says but before a held ball is adjudged

Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

You are splitting hairs. Call the held ball before they start swinging each other around or someone catches an elbow. Besides, do you really want to explain all that to a coach?

I'm just answering the question as it was written. What I'd do in real life depends on the scenario. Isn't splitting hairs what we all do best here? Give me a break.

Then split away! :)
Where would you like for me to put your break? :) :)

So then I ask you, as written what is the correct call? Not necessarily what you'd do, but the correct call by rule based on the situation as written?

I don't want to do the splits all by myself...

Because 2 players on opposing teams had ahold of the ball at the same time, I'm calling a held ball.

The only reason the held ball wasn't already called before the travel is because the primary official had a patient whistle as he knows 2 HS boys will rarely allow someone to tie them up and it's quit probable that one player will rip it away.

Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

Now you're just being a tease. :)

So what would the result of the whole play be in your eyes?

Personally, in this situation, I do not call a held ball as soon as possible. Unlike preventing the release of a pass, or release of a shot, a player cleanly taking the ball away from an opponent requires strength, speed and athleticism.

The immediate jump ball, IMO, diminishes the advantage of being better skilled. ... But it certainly is the easy way to make the call.

mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

I seek consensus, Smitty.
mick

Mick,

How did Smitty quote your post 2 minutes before you posted it?!?! :confused:

BTW, I'm still going with held ball.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

Then I think I'm screwed - looks like I'm the only one who would even consider calling a travel in this situation. Personally I think there are too many quick-whistled held-ball calls. Sure, someone could get hurt or pissed off if you let them struggle for a couple seconds, but how many times have you whistled one dead just as one player has wrestled the ball away? I'm sticking with a travel if, in my opinion, the ball hasn't been held long enough to warrant a held-ball call.

I deleted and reposted, because I didn't want Mr. Grammar all over my back. <I>(ie., <B>seeing</B> a player cleanly taking the ball away from an opponent [<B><U>does not necessarily</U> require</B>] strength, speed and athleticism.</I> :cool:
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

No so, Smitty.
I could see a traveling violation.
mick

Chuck,
And the rationale <U>could be</U> that since A1 could not rip the ball away without traveling, then it must have been [ex post facto] a held ball?
mick

Loose ball...A1 and B1 both pick up ball with neither one trying to take the ball from the other, both holding the ball at arms length. They both take off running in the same direction. Both have the ball, neither using undue force. What do you got?

Double-dual violation, SamIAm.
Blow it dead and give it to the other team.
If the "other team" cannot be determined, use the arrow.:)
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

First to occur is all that matters. It doesn't matter that the ref has not blown the whistle of finished analyzing the play. If the ref ultimately decides a held has occurred, the travel is then durning a dead ball.

I'm calling the held ball...likely with a delay on the whistle to view the whole play.

Not really, Mick. As I said originally, without seeing the actual play, it sounds to me that if the ball didn't come free by "wrenching" it, then the two players had the ball so tightly that sole possession couldn't be gained without undue force. That's pretty much the definition of a held ball.

The feet moved at the wrenching. Thus the *held ball* determination is made after the fact that one of the players had the moving feet.

[Note: I saw this play called as a *travel* in a JV game last night, and I thought it was an interesting case. Like I said, the easy call is *Jump* The harder call is the player (jointly] controlling the ball and violating the *limits on foot movements*.]
mick

I don't really think that the held ball call is the easy call at all, just the correct one.;)

As has been said, if player A needed to travel to get sole possession, that required undue force, thus a held ball by definition.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

Then I'll throw my con cents into the pot too.

Held ball.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

:)

Before "a held ball is judged" we have two players "each firmly holding the ball" - jump ball is the correct call, even the way the sitch is worded.

The only way a player can travel is all by himself. Once another player has co-control of the ball, it's a jump.

Hmmmmm. . .

Hmmmmm. . .

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have to agree with most!!
 

Groooooooan!

Same *Hmmmmm*. ;)

An entire three page thread completely on-topic, with no name calling, and relevant to almost any basketball referee's experience. What are you guys trying to do, ruin this board?!?

BTW, put me in the held ball column.

on the topic of good defense
 

is what caused the travel...

how about an offensive player who goes to shoot and gets blocked and that block causes him to come back down with the ball (it never left his hand because dikembe mutombo doesnt allow that kind of stuff in his house). That good defense -- would you call the up and down or the jump ball (which is what it is).

Re: on the topic of good defense
 

What's an "up and down"?

right
 

i should have said travel...