This new rule for HS is going to take a while for everyone to get ahold of. I believe it will be almost forever for the coaches and parents but we as refs might prolong that process. Here's what I mean: one night the refs don't administer it correctly and the next night another crew does it right. The coaches won't understand because last night it was handled the other way.

Seems to me that when we have a situation, if the crew will get together and think it thru, it's pretty easy to get it right. After attending 3 camps this summer, I've heard this rule discussed pretty thoroughly to where I'm comfortable with it.

I've already had several situations this year working summer and fall ball where coaches were totally confused. The biggest is involving rebounding fouls. Coaches understand that the team control rule is to be implemented here. Just yesterday a coach was so adament that WE had the rule wrong that HE chose to travel the road that earned himself a T. Unfortunately, he's also a HS ref.

No team control on a rebounding foul.......team control exists while th team is in control.......when a shot is released for a try, there is no team control anymore, therefore no team control fouls exist, and bonus throws can be shot.

Exactly! Yet he insisted on us implementing the team control rule. I asked him who has team control during a shot and yet het still misunderstood the rule.

Even if you do "implement the team control rule", you still don't skip the shots. There is no team control during a rebound so the rule says to give shots to the team that got fouled.

The rule change is fairly simple, and most of us should be used to it from watching college ball. Coaches don't need to understand the rule change as much as they need to understand team control. This will also help with those rebounds that are tipped into the backcourt, and with throw-ins that appear to violate the team control rules.

Ya know what?

I don't like this excluding the throw-in for team control fouls.

Ya know what else? I betchya team control on throw-ins will be next years NFHS changes.

I am not sure why this would be so confusing. (with the exception that NBA has loose ball call) the NBA has done this for years and the college has done it for the past couple.

What this points out is the weakness that many officials have... When I started officiating I was told to learn rule 4. We have way too many officials who dont know rule 4 and mess it up. This rule isnt going to cause us any more problems than "backcourt on the throw-in" or long rebounded shots that go backcourt, or timeouts after a made basket, or a host of everything else tied to definitions that officlas dont want to learn and then perpetuate problems when the rest of us show up and do it right

I am not going to climb up into the attic to look up the year the change BUT:

The team control foul rule that the NCAA adopted two years ago and the NFHS adopted for this school year is not new to either organization.

Until the late 1970's games played under NBCofUSC (the predessor of the NFHS and NCAA), NAWGS, and FIBA (it still has the team control foul rule) used the same team control rule that is now in the NFHS and NCAA rules.

I guess being a bald old geezer has its advantages.

MTD, Sr.

Hey Mark, your post looks like an explosion in an Alphabits factory.

btw, check this out:

http://www.mrshurleysesl.com/alphabi...classpage.html

I would totally agree with this. I am still trying to understand the logic behind the NFHS NOT making the high school rule the same as the NCAA rule. I guess to me, it just makes sense that a player with the ball in hand, standing out of bounds, is in control, hence his/her team is in control. Perhaps a way to ask the question is, how is the team NOT in control?

Any opinions or comments appreciated...thanks.

I would totally agree with this. I am still trying to understand the logic behind the NFHS NOT making the high school rule the same as the NCAA rule. I guess to me, it just makes sense that a player with the ball in hand, standing out of bounds, is in control, hence his/her team is in control. <font color = red>Perhaps a way to ask the question is, how is the team NOT in control?</font>

[/B][/QUOTE]Well... probably because the NFHS rules still say so.

NFHS rule 4-12-6 sez "Neither team control or player control exists during a throw-in...".

Under NCAA rules, a team does have team control after the ball has been given to them for a throw-in.

Iow, completely different rules. No logic involved. We just gotta follow what we're given.

Heres my two cents. NFHS cant ever adopt anything fro someobody else because it's not their own.

This is an example. The three-tenths of a second/shot rule is another.

However given the way they view High School it may be a transition. The rules are still written assuming people know nothing about basketball (raised hands for whistles etc)

They may be looking at a transition so that there was not a major reewrite to a lot of rules. I agree that a team holding the ball for a throw-in in in "control" but what other rules would need to be changed if they changed that definition given the wording of the NFHS book?

- throw-in going back court would either be illegal ( Rule 9-9 states that player shall not be first to touch ball after it has been in team control in front court) NBA rule is this way with an exception the last two minutes... so if we wnated the same rule as interpreted now there would be an exception to 9-9 to be created

-three second rule 9-7 states that player cant be in lane wile ball is in control of team in front court. And of course you know someone out there would call three seconds before you had your 5 count done if there was not an exception or a change in wording to team in control and ball in bounds.

- May even have to rewrite Rule 9-8 since the ten second count is when team is in continuous control f ball in BC for ten seconds. So without a rewrite of that rule as well... Following the exact definition team inbounding holds ball for 4 seconds now only has six seconds to get ball across time line.. (remember NCAA 10 second count for men starts differently than NFHS-- touched instaed of control)

I just dont think they wanted to rewrite that many rules and confuse some officials, and a lot of coaches.

Regardless of the other stuff you're all nitpicking over, this particular new rule, the team control foul rule, is not that difficult at all to grasp (certainly compared to some other new rules in the past) and will likely make our lives easier than harder. I like it.

The fact that coaches didn't seem to understand it in the summer is irrelevant. Since when do coaches understand anything about rules? There are only a couple new rules to deal with this year, and they are all pretty easy to understand and implement.

Dan, you've got way, way too much time on your hands!!

My only comment on your possibilities, is that they are already taken care of. Your first example has the throw-in going into the backcourt. Remember, for the backcourt violation there has to be team control <font color = red>in the frontcourt</font>. The ball isn't in the frontcourt, it's OOB. I would think the same reasoning applies to the 3-sec. counts, and the 10-sec. counts as well.

But my point was that if they went to team control on throw in those rules would have to be modified or clarified.

If it's not that hard to grasp, then why did I have a coach who also refs debating that I should be applying the rule? :) I agree, it's not that tough....I think the biggest thing is that it's different than what we're used to but it's not tough.

An alternative maybe would be to just write up a throw-in as an exception-- similar to sumthin' like the frontcourt/backcourt exception in 9-9-3.

Many coaches do not get the 3-second rule either and that one's been in there for a while. After the first few games, the less clueless coaches will start to get it and the other's will still be yelling about "over the back" and "reaching" anyway.

Not really - because there wouldn't be team control <font color = red>in the front court</font>. When you hand the ball to the player OOB under the basket for the throw-in, there would be team control, but because the player is OOB, he's not in the front court, or back court, for that matter. He's OOB. See what I'm getting at? It doesn't matter where along the baseline or sideline that player is, that player is not in the front court until he's in-bounds. So, while he's holding the ball OOB for the throw-in, there wouldn't be a 3-sec. count in the lane, because the ball's not in the front court. The same way, if the player throws it all the way to the back court and his teammate picks it up there, no violation. Because the ball went from OOB to the back court, not from the front court to the back court.

The difference between NCAA and Fed. on team control on a throw-in comes into play of there's a foul on the offensive team, say an illegal screen. In NCAA, with team control on a throw-in by A1, a foul on team A results in a throw-in for B, even with the bonus in effect. In Fed., since there is no team control (yet) on a throw-in, B could still shoot the bonus.

This might be clear to you but the NCAA did see the need to change the BC rule when the TC foul came in to cover BC on the throw-in from the front court. They also changed the 3 second rule btw. I agree with Kelvin, the fed doesn't want to change too much at once. As I've already said I think the other changes will come next year IF the rule sticks, which I think it will.

Ok, I'm confused - what did they change? I always thought front court - back court had to do with players and the ball in-bounds. So, a throw-in coming from OOB doesn't have "front court status" until it is actually in the front court. Otherwise, how could a A1, standing OOB about the free throw line extended in his front court, pass the ball to A2 in the back court?
I do agree with this - I think it might take a while for refs and coaches who have never had to deal with this to get used to it.

True, but often misinterpreted as "a player holding or dirribling the ball in the frontcourt." That's why most (many) of us split the requirement into 1) team control and 2) ball in the front court.

If there was team control during a throw-in, and with no other rules changes, then a throw-in that bounced in the front court and was recovered by A in the back court would be a violation. So would a throw-in that deflected off A1 in the front court and was recovered by A2 in the backcourt. These are the reasons the NCAA changed the wording on backcourt violations ("does not apply during a throw-in") and the definition of when a throw-in ends ("When controlled on the court" -- instead of the FED's "when touched")

9-5-3 and 9-9-1a.

Ok, that makes sense. I hadn't reconciled that possibility of the status of the ball on situation like that.

By the way, use your edit button, quick, before Mr. Spelling Guy wakes up.

I am going to add a little rookie(ness) to this discussion. I have learned not to get wrapped around the axle about the rule. The rule is easier for me to grasp because I am still grasping the avocation. I do understand there cannot be any team-control on a try for goal or during a throw-in.

Well... probably because the NFHS rules still say so.

NFHS rule 4-12-6 sez "Neither team control or player control exists during a throw-in...".

Under NCAA rules, a team does have team control after the ball has been given to them for a throw-in.

Iow, completely different rules. No logic involved. We just gotta follow what we're given. [/B][/QUOTE]

Like JR says, it is very important to go with what the rules say, and not summary questions such as the one in red posed by rmr1119.

Why?

I just got my new rules book today, and while reading the new definition of a team-control foul, I noticed that not all player-control fouls qualify as team-control fouls.

The AIRBORNE SHOOTER is the exception.
However, the penalty is still the same (unlike NCAA men).