Working a varsity boys H.S. game the other night.....when my partner, one of those old boys network guys, calls a traveling on B1. What happened was that there was a loose ball on the floor, when B1 dove for the ball and got it, but in the process of getting the ball he slide on the floor on his belly. Know yes he did move forward after getting the ball, but it was his moumentum that made him do it, and not just doing it to avoid the defense. At the halftime break I told him that I didn't think it was a walk...he said "Well when you do your college games you can let it go, but when I am working it is a walk." Yes there is some hostility in my group about me doing college, and not being one of the boys. Tell me what you think!!!!!

Your partner obviously cannot admit to making
a mistake. If it happened as you described, at any level it is not a travel.

I believe the rule is, your momentum is not considered traveling, however if you roll in an attempt to avoid the defence that is what constitute's the travel.
Your "partner" seems to have forgotten the old adage that "your only as good as your last game" and making calls like that might be the reason he isn't calling at the college level.

------------------
Don

I know what you mean. At a clinic, I was explaining the over and back rule. I gave the example of A1 dribbling in the frontcourt, B1 hits the ball, it hits A1 in the leg and goes into backcourt where it is recovered by A1.

One of the refs there said, "there's a lot of experienced refs who won't call that, because they rule that B1 "caused" the ball to go into the backcourt."

My reply - "Then there's a lot of experienced refs who would be wrong. That doesn't mean you should be one of them."

Just figure that the guy is jealous and maybe the reason he isn't doing higher levels is because he makes wrong calls when he really knows better.

An easy way to remember the over and back rule is think last touch last control. This
makes the call very easy and it is as you
stated, over and back if A-1 is the last to
touch the ball in your scenario. Guys that
don't make the call lack courage because they no they can pass it off as being right
with most coaches who do not no the rule.

Its a shame these good olde boys don,t open there eyes and minds up as much as they do there mouths. Maybe they could learn something. Its obvious they don,t have this web site as one of there favorites because they would learn something and that would be against club rules. But enough with spouting off you are 100% correct in the rule and the spirit of the rule.

Did you ever notice the people that do not want to change or do not move up(and are jealous of the ones who do) are the ones that have one years experience 10-20 times?

I understand that as 'experience' officials we need to give back to the game and take some of those lower level games as our own game deteriorates.

However, at some point the official must recognize that he is taking more from the game than he is giving back.

We all have to retire sometime and when I do, I want to be remembered for my great years, not when I can't get across halfcourt or I totally forget the concept of officiating like this one official has done.

If the player went dove onto the floor to get the loose ball, forget about any movement while on the floor, and he got up with the ball, why is that not a travel?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J Morrow on 01-03-2000 11:15 PM
If the player went dove onto the floor to get the loose ball, forget about any movement while on the floor, and he got up with the ball, why is that not a travel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JM,
I don't think the post said he got up. If he did get up with the ball without dribbling, you are right ... it's a walk.
mick

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J Morrow on 01-03-2000 11:15 PM
If the player went dove onto the floor to get the loose ball, forget about any movement while on the floor, and he got up with the ball, why is that not a travel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said that he got up, I said that he got the ball. If he got up without dribbling the ball then yes it would be a walk.

It was not a travel, and let him know that there is a reason you are doing college games. GET WITH THE TIMES!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KidKJ on 01-05-2000 04:32 PM
It was not a travel, and let him know that there is a reason you are doing college games. GET WITH THE TIMES!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kidkj,

We only heard what this guy saw. Has anyone wondered WHY he was watching 'outside' his coverage area? This is the first red flag!

This guy is upset that he's not 'one of the guys'. Has anyone wondered why? Maybe, it has nothing to do with working college! Red flag number two!

Officiating college doesn't automatically qualify a person as a 'superior' referee. Until an official works in the NCAA Division 1 Championship Tournament, we (or himself) should never consider them 'superior'. We have several 'college' guys that make me cringe when I see them work high school.

Did anyone besides myself realize that the 'college' official goes to the dressing room at halftime and he criticizes his partner for a 'missed' call. This guy doesn't show me the diplomacy that a 'superior' official should have shown. Doesn't it make sense to ask the partner what he 'saw' on the play and to make sure he understood the rule interpretation before telling him he 'missed' it? Red flag number three!!!

What if the calling official, with the angle HE had, had made the correct call? After all, we must admit, the original post only gave us the 'college' official's point-of-view? And his view was 'outside' his primary coverage area (or he would have over-ruled his partner). So we get his angle which evidently was a long way from the play. Another red flag!

I would love to hear the other's side on this story. I think there is more to it than what we have been told!!!!!!!!!

KDM

Ken, why do you seem so upset?
It's one play.
mick

KDM
If your are working with an official no matter what the level, you both have the obligation to "Better" the game and that means striving to better yourself. How do we do that? By communication, by pregame, by postgame, by continually upgrading your skills. The old saying goes "you are only as GOOD as your last game or last call. We were not in the locker room and don't know how the statement was said. But i don't have a problem exchanging idea's or points of view with my fellow referees, i might not change my mind but we can still discuss it.

------------------
Don

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KDM on 01-05-2000 10:54 PM
Kidkj,

We only heard what this guy saw. Has anyone wondered WHY he was watching 'outside' his coverage area? This is the first red flag!

This guy is upset that he's not 'one of the guys'. Has anyone wondered why? Maybe, it has nothing to do with working college! Red flag number two!

Officiating college doesn't automatically qualify a person as a 'superior' referee. Until an official works in the NCAA Division 1 Championship Tournament, we (or himself) should never consider them 'superior'. We have several 'college' guys that make me cringe when I see them work high school.

Did anyone besides myself realize that the 'college' official goes to the dressing room at halftime and he criticizes his partner for a 'missed' call. This guy doesn't show me the diplomacy that a 'superior' official should have shown. Doesn't it make sense to ask the partner what he 'saw' on the play and to make sure he understood the rule interpretation before telling him he 'missed' it? Red flag number three!!!

What if the calling official, with the angle HE had, had made the correct call? After all, we must admit, the original post only gave us the 'college' official's point-of-view? And his view was 'outside' his primary coverage area (or he would have over-ruled his partner). So we get his angle which evidently was a long way from the play. Another red flag!

I would love to hear the other's side on this story. I think there is more to it than what we have been told!!!!!!!!!

KDM




<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At no time did I ever say that I was a ref god because I do college ball, I was just stating what his response was to me. As far as where the call was and primary area, that was never talked about in the original post, when in fact the play happened in my primary, and he left his area to make the call. As to the 3rd thing about being a superior ref, I just asked him, why he had a travel, when in fact it is not a travel. I never belittle any offical, as a matter of fact, I try to get to my game early enough, so that if the refs working the game before mine would like some help or advise in the lockerroom, only when they ask me not just giving it to them, then I help them. Just giving back to the game that has treated me so well. I hope that helps you out, try not to be so hostile next time, and maybe you will be better preceived.

Dennis,

Because I offer a point of view that went against the opinions of the 'other' replys, does not mean that I'm a 'hostile' person. I evidently struck a nerve by offering a 'different' perspective. As far as being 'perceived' in a negative light, that doesn't bother me the least. Just look at all the responses that I DIDN'T get, maybe I have alot of QUIET people that are agreeing with my perspective!?!

In my response, I did NOT call you a "REF GOD". I don't know what that is anyway.

In my response, the official making the call outside his area is a fact that should have been mentioned in the original post. This is what I meant by 'there being more to it that what we were told'.

Since, NOW, we find out he made the call in your primary, why didn't you do the right thing and overrule his call? After all, he missed it, right? A brief discussion, maybe explaining the error to the coaches, and then you put the ball in play at the nearest out-of-bounds spot. Then you go ahead with the game, and you gain respect for making the right call.

In my response, in your original post you said you TOLD him 'you did not think it was a walk'. At no time was I led to believe (by your original post) that you 'ASKED' him why he had a walk. Again, NOW we find out that you asked. Another reason why I thought 'there being more to it than what we were told'.

In my response, I did NOT call you a superior official. Just working college doesn't make anyone superior (unless they work Div. 1 NCAA Championship Tournament) then I feel that they have crossed that line to supremacy. I was discussing officials in general and not you in particular.

While your original post was intended to display the response your partner gave you concerning working 'college' games, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for his behavior. If that is what he said, I do not condone it! But in appearance to me, your original post spent too much time talking about the 'old boys network' and you being a college official. I'm not for certain how you meant the 'old boys network' to be interpreted? Or your statement about 'hostilities' for being a college official?

I wonder .... what is being said behind your back by your 'old boys network'. On the same token, you have gone behind their back by coming to this site and negatively discussing them. Who is the winner in this scenario? Neither one of you. Its time to sit down with the leaders of your group for a man-to-man talk. With these hostilities and jealous behaviors, the losers are the kids who are caught in the middle by no fault of their own. The loser is the game of basketball, which obviously you love and all of us love so dearly. You and your group need to step-up and resolve the differences and learn from it. Do it today, not tomorrow, not next week!

KDM

And I worried my posts were long-winded.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KDM on 01-05-2000 10:54 PM
Kidkj,

We only heard what this guy saw. Has anyone wondered WHY he was watching 'outside' his coverage area? This is the first red flag!

This guy is upset that he's not 'one of the guys'. Has anyone wondered why? Maybe, it has nothing to do with working college! Red flag number two!

Officiating college doesn't automatically qualify a person as a 'superior' referee. Until an official works in the NCAA Division 1 Championship Tournament, we (or himself) should never consider them 'superior'. We have several 'college' guys that make me cringe when I see them work high school.

Did anyone besides myself realize that the 'college' official goes to the dressing room at halftime and he criticizes his partner for a 'missed' call. This guy doesn't show me the diplomacy that a 'superior' official should have shown. Doesn't it make sense to ask the partner what he 'saw' on the play and to make sure he understood the rule interpretation before telling him he 'missed' it? Red flag number three!!!

What if the calling official, with the angle HE had, had made the correct call? After all, we must admit, the original post only gave us the 'college' official's point-of-view? And his view was 'outside' his primary coverage area (or he would have over-ruled his partner). So we get his angle which evidently was a long way from the play. Another red flag!

I would love to hear the other's side on this story. I think there is more to it than what we have been told!!!!!!!!!

KDM




<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sounds like someone else has sour grapes!! thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by KDM on 01-06-2000 07:57 AM
Dennis,

Since, NOW, we find out he made the call in your primary, why didn't you do the right thing and overrule his call? After all, he missed it, right? A brief discussion, maybe explaining the error to the coaches, and then you put the ball in play at the nearest out-of-bounds spot. Then you go ahead with the game, and you gain respect for making the right call.

"Over rule his call" That is basically an issue you discuss at halftime or after the game,not make it a bigger problem over a walk while on the floor. Dennis's co-official made two bad judgemnts that night , one he called in Dennis primary area, and two he tanked the call based on the description of the play.
Now let's all be good folks and start sharing toys again,no arguing OK! http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/wink.gif

Very entertaining guys. I usually watch the Jerry Springer show for confrontations of this nature.