wat does it matter...
 

if the free throw is in the air or not -- the FT's in question here are during the administration of a T -- doesnt the ball still belong to the team shooting the free throw?

why would it matter if it were in the air or not in this case?

Re: hey chuck?
 

In NCAA, dunking in pre-game is not an unsporting T. It's an indirect T (in MEN'S, but not in women's, I believe). That means it doesn't count toward the team fouls, it doesn't count toward a player's 5 for DQ and it doesn't get charged to the coach. After an indirect T, play resumes at the POI.

Let's ignore the double foul for a moment. If a player dunks in pre-game, you shoot 2 FTs and resume at the POI, which is a jump ball to start the game.

Ok, now let's add the double foul back in. B1 dunks in pre-game. A1 is holding the ball for his 2 FTs. A2 and B2 foul each other at the same time. Double personal foul.

In college, double personal fouls are put in play by giving the ball to the team in control. . .

Hmmmm. . .

Team A has control. So do we give the ball to Team A after the FTs? Wow, now I'm not sure what the NCAA administration would be. Seems like by rule, Team A gets possession. Jeez, am I overlooking something obvious?

In HS, it's easier. Pre-game dunk is a T; 2 FTs and the ball. So when the double personal occurs, we just continue with the FTs (that's the POI) and then give A the ball just like we would after any other T.

That NCAA thing is bugging me now. Somebody chime in on this, please?

Re: wat does it matter...
 

In HS, yes. But in college the T does not necessarily give the offended team the ball.

Chuck, good question and I'm leaning towards giving the ball to A at the spot of the foul by falling back on assessing penalties in the order they occur.

Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

Is there a significant difference between "back to the team in control" and "POI" (that applies to this situation)?

What would you do if, during the game, there was a personal foul, and during the FT for that foul, there was a double personal foul?

Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

Using NCAA rules:

Since the game clock has not been started after it was stopped for the first foul, we have a false double foul (4-26.12). The first part of the false double foul is the personal foul that cause the FTs, and the second part of the false double foul is the double personal foul. With me so far?

By rule, when the last foul that is part of a false double foul is a double personal foul, the ball shall be awarded to the team entitled to the AP throw-in. (8-6.2)

So, if the double foul occurs while the shooter still has the ball in her/his hands, blow the whistle, report, clear the lanes, shoot all remaining FTs, and use AP to put the ball in play at the designated spot nearest the double personal foul.

If the double foul occurs while the shot is in the air, the result counts whether the shot is made or missed. Blow the whistle, report, shoot any remaining FTs, and use AP to put the ball in play at the designated spot nearest the double personal foul.

I hadn't reread 8-6.2 when I made my earlier post. Chuck, I think that that rule clears up everything (or at least everything under question in this post!)

Oh, and if we used PoI to put the ball back in play, then in the first case (where the shooter is still holding the ball), after reporting, you'd just give the ball back to the FT shooter and continue from there. There would be no AP throw-in.

[Edited by lotto on Oct 6th, 2005 at 11:18 AM]

Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

I don't know, Bob. That's what I'm trying to figure out, I guess. Team A has control, that much is clear. So do we simply resume by giving the ball back to A for his FTs and resume with the jump ball? Or is Team A entitled to throw-in as a result of the double foul?

I hope it's the former. But I'd like to know for sure.

Re: Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

It certainly clears up Bob's question, but I'm not sure that it deals with the original sitch. In the original sitch the first foul occurred before the game started, so the clock was never "stopped" after the first foul.

And if we all agree that this is a false double and that 8-6-2 does cover the situation, then we'd still have to resume with a jump ball, b/c the arrow hasn't been set yet.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

Agreed. The only remaining question is whether the foulers jump, or anyone can jump.