The following is a question that we've had on our exam in the past. I would appreciate the groups opinions with the correct answer.

Prior to the game a technical foul is charged to Team A. While the ball is at the disposal of B1 for the first attempt, a double personal foul is called. Following the free throws for the technical foul the game resumes play with a jump ball with the two involved players. Rulimg: The offical is correct

I answered this as True. Since team control has not been established, the ball has to be put back into play via jump ball between the two players involved in the double personal. I understand the POI rule, but as previously stated, no team control has been established, thus no POI. Is their anything that I may be missing

The official is not correct per FED rules. The official may be correct per NCAA rules, depending on what the technical foul was for.

In HS, the technical foul gives the offended team 2 FTs and the ball at midcourt. Although there is no team control until the FT shooter is holding or dribbling the live ball inbounds, the only time we go to the arrow for the POI is when there is no team control and no goal, infraction nor end of period is involved. Since there was an infraction involved here (the shooting foul), we don't need the arrow. Resume with the two FTs, then continue with the ball to the offended team at midcourt.

(Thanks for the email, assignmentmaker!)


[Edited by ChuckElias on Oct 3rd, 2005 at 05:17 PM]

I don't have the current year books, but ...

I'd answer "false." I think the POI is the continuation of B1's FTs for the T. Then, B gets the ball OOB, and the arrow is set toward A's basket.

Double personal foul? If you had a T prior to the game starting and B1 shooting, how could you have a double personal foul? I am administering the T foul shots with no players anywhere near each other.

No quibble regarding the T but I take issue with this part of your statement...

Kindly provide rules citation for this limitation on player position.

Once the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, the ball is live, and the fouls may be personal, not technical.

Yup, you're right, Frank. Pauli is not questioning the personal/technical difference. He's saying that if you have a T to start the game (especially if the T is for something unsportsmanlike), it would be good game management to separate the two teams while the FT are being shot to avoid the possibility of two opponents squaring off.

There is none. All ten players must be on the court during the FTs, but the nine who aren't shooting can be anywhere behind the FT line extended and the three-point line.
Most people incorrectly believe that the players must be behind the division line (midcourt) during technical FTs.

Chuck is correct on the POI resumption. This is new this year for NFHS. Last year the double personal foul would have necessitated a jump ball between the two fouling players.

In NCAA, double personal fouls still go back to team in control, or to AP if there is no team control.

So suppose there is a double personal foul by A2 and B2 during the initial jump. We go to AP, but possession hasn't been established yet. Clearly we need to rejump. Do the jumpers have to be A2 and B2 (as some of the discussion here suggests)? Where in the NCAA rulebook does it say this?

In the original posters situation, under NCAA rules, team B has team control since the live ball is being held by B1. So the ball would go to team B after B1's second FT. Set the arrow in A's direction.

If the double foul occurs when the FT attempt is in flight, then we have no team control and the ball will be put in play with a jump.

Of course, it's hard to imagine exactly what chain of events would lead to a ref calling a double personal foul during a FT attempt with the lane cleared, but that's neither here nor there.

David, if the POI were the throw-in, then yes. You would be correct, and we would put the ball in play at the spot closest to where the ball was when the fouls occurred.

But in this case, the POI is the FTs for the original infraction, which was a Technical foul. So we go to the POI, which is to shoot the FTs. Then after shooting the 2 FTs, the ensuing throw-in will be at midcourt, as it would be after any T (in HS).

I know I must be missing something but didn't you say in another thread that the POI would be the spot of the foul and not the location of the ball?

Actually, this seems like a pretty good question to me for HS too. Does this change the old ruling about the involved players doing the re-jump? I haven't seen the new case books yet (although I will tonight), so I don't know if anything has changed. I can't lay my hands on my NCAA rulebook at the moment, so I can't help there, either.


I don't think so Lotto. If the T was an indirect (dunking before the game, scorebook infraction, etc.), then we would shoot the FTs and resume with a jump ball. The double personals wouldn't change that, b/c the POI is not the throw-in; it's the FTs. So you shoot the FTs and then do whatever you would've done next, which is a jump ball.

If the original T was for dead ball contact or unsportsmanlike action, then the offended team would get the ball after the FTs, and I'd agree with what you said above.

That depends on whether we're shooting the 1st or 2nd of the FTs, doesn't it?

If I did, then I was mistaken. The new rule states that after a double foul, play is resumed from the POI. And part of the definition of POI is that the ball is put in play at the spot closest to where the ball was when play was interrupted.

hey chuck?
 

is dunking before the game considered unsporting??? it is indirect on coach, but direct to person doing it,so would it be out of bounds or jump ball??

wat does it matter...
 

if the free throw is in the air or not -- the FT's in question here are during the administration of a T -- doesnt the ball still belong to the team shooting the free throw?

why would it matter if it were in the air or not in this case?

Re: hey chuck?
 

In NCAA, dunking in pre-game is not an unsporting T. It's an indirect T (in MEN'S, but not in women's, I believe). That means it doesn't count toward the team fouls, it doesn't count toward a player's 5 for DQ and it doesn't get charged to the coach. After an indirect T, play resumes at the POI.

Let's ignore the double foul for a moment. If a player dunks in pre-game, you shoot 2 FTs and resume at the POI, which is a jump ball to start the game.

Ok, now let's add the double foul back in. B1 dunks in pre-game. A1 is holding the ball for his 2 FTs. A2 and B2 foul each other at the same time. Double personal foul.

In college, double personal fouls are put in play by giving the ball to the team in control. . .

Hmmmm. . .

Team A has control. So do we give the ball to Team A after the FTs? Wow, now I'm not sure what the NCAA administration would be. Seems like by rule, Team A gets possession. Jeez, am I overlooking something obvious?

In HS, it's easier. Pre-game dunk is a T; 2 FTs and the ball. So when the double personal occurs, we just continue with the FTs (that's the POI) and then give A the ball just like we would after any other T.

That NCAA thing is bugging me now. Somebody chime in on this, please?

Re: wat does it matter...
 

In HS, yes. But in college the T does not necessarily give the offended team the ball.

Chuck, good question and I'm leaning towards giving the ball to A at the spot of the foul by falling back on assessing penalties in the order they occur.

Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

Is there a significant difference between "back to the team in control" and "POI" (that applies to this situation)?

What would you do if, during the game, there was a personal foul, and during the FT for that foul, there was a double personal foul?

Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

Using NCAA rules:

Since the game clock has not been started after it was stopped for the first foul, we have a false double foul (4-26.12). The first part of the false double foul is the personal foul that cause the FTs, and the second part of the false double foul is the double personal foul. With me so far?

By rule, when the last foul that is part of a false double foul is a double personal foul, the ball shall be awarded to the team entitled to the AP throw-in. (8-6.2)

So, if the double foul occurs while the shooter still has the ball in her/his hands, blow the whistle, report, clear the lanes, shoot all remaining FTs, and use AP to put the ball in play at the designated spot nearest the double personal foul.

If the double foul occurs while the shot is in the air, the result counts whether the shot is made or missed. Blow the whistle, report, shoot any remaining FTs, and use AP to put the ball in play at the designated spot nearest the double personal foul.

I hadn't reread 8-6.2 when I made my earlier post. Chuck, I think that that rule clears up everything (or at least everything under question in this post!)

Oh, and if we used PoI to put the ball back in play, then in the first case (where the shooter is still holding the ball), after reporting, you'd just give the ball back to the FT shooter and continue from there. There would be no AP throw-in.

[Edited by lotto on Oct 6th, 2005 at 11:18 AM]

Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

I don't know, Bob. That's what I'm trying to figure out, I guess. Team A has control, that much is clear. So do we simply resume by giving the ball back to A for his FTs and resume with the jump ball? Or is Team A entitled to throw-in as a result of the double foul?

I hope it's the former. But I'd like to know for sure.

Re: Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

It certainly clears up Bob's question, but I'm not sure that it deals with the original sitch. In the original sitch the first foul occurred before the game started, so the clock was never "stopped" after the first foul.

And if we all agree that this is a false double and that 8-6-2 does cover the situation, then we'd still have to resume with a jump ball, b/c the arrow hasn't been set yet.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hey chuck?
 

Agreed. The only remaining question is whether the foulers jump, or anyone can jump.