point of interruption

[elecref]

1. i am trying to better understand the new rule regarding POI so here is my question. A1 is dribbling the ball in his frontcourt and is closely guarded by B1. B1 bats the ball out of bounds. during the dead ball period before the ball is placed at the disposal of team A, U1 calls a double technical on A2 and B2 for profanity. Ruling: since their is not team control druing the dead ball period, we use the AP arrow and put the ball in play at the division line opposite the table.

Correct or not?

2. is their situation where we would not put the ball in play at the division line with a double technical and the new POI rule?

[truerookie]

1. According to rule 4-36-c An alternating possession throw in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/ extra period is involved. In this case, I will say you will go to the AP your situation appears to meet the criteria.

2. I do not believe so.

[ChuckElias]

1. There is an infraction involved -- an OOB violation. We know who is entitled to the ball at this point: Team A. So the POI is to give the ball to Team A for a designated spot throw-in.

2. The only time the ball will be put in play at midcourt after double T's is if that's where the ball was located when the T's occurred.

[jeffpea]

The Point of Interruption rule should be relatively easy to administer during a game. Ask yourself: "Self, who had the ball or who is supposed to have the ball next?" Give it to that team and just think of where the ball was or where the possession was to have started.

The only times that you may have an issue is during a shot or a loose ball. Generally speaking, you won't have a T during those instances - you'll probably wait a second or two before you call it. Not always, but most of the time.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by jeffpea
The only times that you may have an issue is during a shot or a loose ball.

I agree. But remember that during a shot, there is no team control; during a "loose ball", there usually is team control. So administration of double fouls will be different in those two situations. (No team control = AP arrow; team control = possession to team in control.)

Generally speaking, you won't have a T during those instances

True, but double personals while diving for a loose ball, or double personals while grappling for rebounding position (while not common) are not unheard of.

[refTN]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I agree. But remember that during a shot, there is no team control; during a "loose ball", there usually is team control. So administration of double fouls will be different in those two situations. (No team control = AP arrow; team control = possession to team in control.)

True, but double personals while diving for a loose ball, or double personals while grappling for rebounding position (while not common) are not unheard of.

I just ask that nobody on this forum not be the guy to call this loose ball T. If we are good at game management, which I think all of us on here are, we will wait to see who gains possession before calling the T. I had the situation where a player was shooting a three and the defender just started giving me hell, because I missed an illegal screen, and I just waited to see who gained the rebound and T'ed him up. It was Sebastian Telfair by the way that I got to T up. If I wouldn't have waited we would have had a jump ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

I just ask that nobody on this forum not be the guy to call this loose ball T. If we are good at game management, which I think all of us on here are, we will wait to see who gains possession before calling the T. I had the situation where a player was shooting a three and the defender just started giving me hell, because I missed an illegal screen, and I just waited to see who gained the rebound and T'ed him up.

Um, weren't they talking about double technical fouls?

You must be referring to NCAA rules anyway, right? Under FED rules, the penalty is the same no matter when you call it. And under NCAA rules, the ball is gonna go to the POI anyway for a direct player T, isn't it? Do you really think that it's good game management" to wait? What if you waited and then the team of the player that got the T also got the rebound? Aren't you possibly rewarding that team with an extra possession that they don't deserve?

Are you referring to SEC principles here? Does the SEC really recommend ignoring the NCAA rule as written, and to then make up your own rule under the guise of "game management"? Just wondering.....most college supervisors I've talked to don't really like it when their officials don't follow the rules as written. It's kinda hard to explain these cases to the coach that's asking them about the call. In this case, it's called "giving someone an extra advantage not intended by the rules". That concept is kinda frowned on in some leagues.

Jmo, but you're better off just calling the game by the rules sometimes.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:48 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by refTN
I just ask that nobody on this forum not be the guy to call this loose ball T. [/B]

I promise not to be the guy to call this loose ball T.
Never.
Not me.
No way.

[refTN]

Jurassic what do you mean "not following the rules" is it not ok to wait to see who gains control of the ball before you call a T. Where in the rulebook is the wrong.

[oc]

Originally posted by refTN
Jurassic what do you mean "not following the rules" is it not ok to wait to see who gains control of the ball before you call a T. Where in the rulebook is the wrong.

I think he is saying that it doesn't matter if you call a single T during a loose ball or after someone gets possesion. Under FED rules it will be ball at the division line in both cases-so just call it.

If it is a DOUBLE T then you go POI.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN
Jurassic what do you mean "not following the rules" is it not ok to wait to see who gains control of the ball before you call a T. Where in the rulebook is the wrong.

Did you read my amended response above?

What rule set are you using? And what is the pertinent rule in that ruleset as to calling a direct player T when neither team is in possession versus waiting to call the T until a team does gain possession?

You tell me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 28th, 2005 at 02:11 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by oc

I think he is saying that it doesn't matter if you call a single T during a loose ball or after someone gets possesion. Under FED rules it will be ball at the division line in both cases-so just call it.

If it is a DOUBLE T then you go POI.

And, under NCAA rules, for a single direct player T- which is what RefTN is talking about, you go to the POI also, I believe.

[refTN]

My bad I just misread it. Jurassic if the defender is the player I am going to T up, then if the defense rebounds I T immediately. If it is the offense that rebounds and is going right back up for a shot, I will wait till they score. In college, I believe, if you don't wait you have to go the AP and that is ridiculous when you can just wait to see who gets possession, then T. In the NBA if you don't wait, you have a jump ball at the nearest circle, which again is ridiculous. In my eyes it is good game management.

As far as the double T goes, I would wait to see who gets the ball here as well because once again you would have to go to the AP, oh wait I guess with the way the team control rule is written you could just give it back to the team who last had control of it which would be horrible. You're not making it fair to the team who was on defense, but had a legitimate chance at a steal.

There is no way anyone on this forum is going to agree with me on this but here goes:

The NBA has two different types of control of the ball: team control and team possession. It is in team control until the ball is deflected by the defense. Once it is deflected there is no team control, but there is still team possession. I personally like this, because if you give a technical during a loose ball and it was last in the possession of team A, and the team possession rule was not in there then the ball would go to the team who last had possession instead of fairly going to the jump ball. If you let one team establish possession and then call the T, you can give the ball to the right team without having the jump ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN
1) Jurassic if the defender is the player I am going to T up, then if the defense rebounds I T immediately. If it is the offense that rebounds and is going right back up for a shot, I will wait till they score. In college, I believe, if you don't wait you have to go the AP and that is ridiculous when you can just wait to see who gets possession, then T. In the NBA if you don't wait, you have a jump ball at the nearest circle, which again is ridiculous. In my eyes it is good game management.

2) As far as the double T goes, I would wait to see who gets the ball here as well because once again you would have to go to the AP, oh wait I guess with the way the team control rule is written you could just give it back to the team who last had control of it which would be horrible. You're not making it fair to the team who was on defense, but had a legitimate chance at a steal.

3) The NBA has two different types of control of the ball: team control and team possession. It is in team control until the ball is deflected by the defense. Once it is deflected there is no team control, but there is still team possession. I personally like this, because if you give a technical during a loose ball and it was last in the possession of team A, and the team possession rule was not in there then the ball would go to the team who last had possession instead of fairly going to the jump ball. If you let one team establish possession and then call the T, you can give the ball to the right team without having the jump ball.

1) That's called "making up your own rules". Good luck to that. We disagree.

2) Again, you're making up your own rules. Again, good luck trying to explain that to a supervisor who's gotta give an explanation of your actions to an irate coach. Also again, we certainly do disagree.

3)A loose ball deflected by the defense remains in team control of the last team to have had player control under both FED and NCAA rulesets too. It's a very big mistake, imo, to try and apply NBA concepts to other rulesets.

[Nevadaref]

Part 1: Round to JR
Part 2: Round to JR
Part 3: Round to JR



Go, JR, go!