Middle School 7th grade girls.

Player receives pass
Player drives down court ... in wrong driection.
Officials are so astounded, they forget to call a backcourt violation after she crossed the timeline :D

At least nothing bad came of it.

I had this happen in a boys JV game on a rebound after a missed free throw. The A2 rebounded the miss by A1, turned, and dribbled up court. I was the original trail official and held my ground until the back court violation was committed. So this play is not limited to middle school.

Oh yes, and it can even be worse. I was officiating a very intense varsity rivalry game a couple years ago. Gym packed, back and forth game. I think it was in the second quarter. Partner (2-person game) calls a held ball so I give him the direction signal so it's white ball. I administer a few subs and then nod at him that it's OK to administer the throw-in. He hands the ball to a player in red and I hesitate. That doesn't seem right. Red throws the ball in and I'm still thinking that it should be white ball. I'm 90% sure, but don't want to blow my whistle yet... and then I'm 100% sure so I blow my whistle as red crosses half court. We correctly give the ball back to white. My partner was more red than the jersey of the visiting team.

Z

Two questions, Z...

1) How does this relate to the original post?

2) Did you really call the ball back because you'd given it to the wrong team? That's not according to Hoyle...

1) Well, the original post was about some referee confusion and teams going the wrong way. Are you feeling the need to be picky and argumentative this morning?

2) Common sense often trumps Hoyle.

Z

Unless the coach happens to know Hoyle. The coach is gonna be pissed b/c you took the ball away from his team. He may look it up or ask around. If he finds out you did it wrong, that could be a problem for you.

You can never get in trouble by applying the rules correctly. JMO.

Common sense worked fine. There were no problems. There would have been a complete hornet's nest if we would have allowed red to go score a layup on the confused white team because the official's gave the ball to the wrong team after correctly awarding it to white. Common sense officiating often trumps Hoyle. Black and white officials often have lots of problems in game administration. I have a hard time believing that you would have just let red score. Besides, it you want to get "rulesy" about it, you can re-read my post and see that I recognized the mistake before the ball was inbounded (so before the throw-in was completed) and I just had a delayed whistle.

Z



[Edited by zebraman on Sep 27th, 2005 at 11:27 AM]

I'm glad that you didn't have problems. But if the coach happens to know the rule, you're screwed. That's all I'm saying.


Not to be holier-than-thou, but I would've blown my whistle before the red kid got the ball. I'd rather say "Wait a minute" and be wrong, than let it go and have to do what you had to do.

I'm not sure that matters. According to the casebook play (6-4-1), I believe that once the throw-in pass is touched inbounds, the mistake cannot be corrected.

Chuck,

I'm sure you've never had a moment of hesitation in any of your games. Maybe I'll achieve that elite level someday. :rolleyes:

Z

Even if you don't correct it, there's nothing stopping you from blowing the whistle and letting red keep the throwin just to let white get back on defense. That would at least keep the error from being too costly.

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/0409...es/popcorn.jpg

Peace

Z, this is silly. The only way we learn is to break down our own plays, be they good, bad or indifferent. Obviously Chuck's suggestion to hit the whistle as soon as you were unsure would have been the best course, just as obviously you didn't take the best course. We've all been there. For the record you did the next best thing IMO - fix the damn play as soon as you realize what happened & get on with it. If coach Red knows the rule & complains tell him to call your assigner or interpretor after the game to complain but he aint getting the ball.

BTW, what I am curious about is did either or both coaches know what was happening? I imagine Coach White was standing by his bench wondering just whatinthehell was going on.

Dan,

Well I know the best course of action would have been to crack the whistle right away. I think I could reply to a lot of posts on this board with, "well, I would have done it exactly right the first time instead." Not sure that helps anyone though and it really does come off as holier-than-thou.

There had been several substitutions during this dead ball so both coaches were just kind of standing there, watching their respective offense and defense prepare for the throw-in and not really paying much attention to my partner. As soon as I hit my whistle, both coaches realized what had happened and so did my red-faced partner. I walked toward the table and both coaches had figured it out by then and both were laughing. The P.A. announcer made a quick announcement "throw-in error, should be white ball" for the clued-out fans and we went on without incident.

I just don't get Chuck's take that we would have been screwed if the white coach had known the rule.

"Coach, I recognized it before the throw-in was complete but I hesitated due to my inherent insecurity." :D End of story.

How screwed would we have been had I let the play go on and then told the white coach, "Well sure coach, I recognized it before the pass was thrown, but by rule I'm not allowed to fix it once the ball is touched inbounds?" I think at that point, I start looking for the escort out of the gym.

Z

Doesn't look like I'm the one that's being argumentative this morning...

He's under a lot of pressure these days, - his beloved Red Sox are about to go from leading the division for 4 months to out of the playoff picture.

MORE POPCORN!!!!

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/0409...es/popcorn.jpg

Peace

What would you or Dan do, Z, if this exact same play came up in a college game? The NCAA rules are the same as the FED rules...i.e. once the throw-in ends, by rule you can't fix your error. If you knew that your call was gonna be reviewed by a league evaluator, and this call came up at a time in the game where it possibly could affect who won the game, do you still stop play and re-do the AP? Adjust the game clock too?

Just wondering.

As I said, Z, I'm not trying to come off as better than anybody. We've been on this forum for a long time, and you and I have never butted heads. So hopefully you know that I'm not just talking trash. Let me try to say things in a different way.

You knew who was getting the ball. You were the one who give the initial direction signal after the held ball. When I'm in that situation, I have a little mental dialogue going while I'm counting players. White ball, then switch the arrow. White ball, then switch the arrow. If we're being efficient during the dead ball, this situation is easier to prevent. That's all I was trying to say.

And as I did say, I would rather be a little too quick on the whistle in this sitch and be wrong, then be too slow and have to "fix" it by ignoring the rules.

I don't get how you don't get it. :)

It just seems to me that if the coach knows the rule and wants to make an issue of it (and he will make an issue of it), he's in the right and you will have 2 choices. 1) Admit that he's right and that you screwed up the original situation and that you screwed up the "solution"; or 2) Tell him that he's wrong -- which is not going to go over well, b/c he knows he's right -- and end up T'ing him.

Here's what I've heard at camps. An assignor can back you to the hilt on your judgment. But nobody can back you up if you misapply the rules. Officials rarely get disciplined for judgment calls. When officials get disciplined, it's b/c they clearly missed something that affected the game (6 men on the court) or b/c they misapplied a rule.


Unless the coach knows the rule. Then it's not the end of story b/c he knows that "once the ball is touched, you can't give it back!" And "you just stole a possession from our team". And "yeah, it was a mistake, but that's not really my problem, is it? It's our ball!!" And on and on he'll go.

I honestly don't know. But at least when he called your assignor, your assignor could say to him that you were right.

I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight. But it just seems to me that you can never get in trouble by applying the rules correctly. As always, JMO.

Life is somewhat easier if I don't worry about what an evaluator might or might not say to me later while I'm trying to "unscrew the pooch" right now, so that's not a real concern for me at that moment. Now, the entire crew having f'ed this up royally beyond any possible recognition the only possible thing left to do is figure out how to minimze the impact. And it seems to me, sitting here, the least impact is if we just fix it. Including the clock.

Fair enough, but I've also heard that "the most important thing is that we get the call right" about a million times. I don't worry about any second-guessing an evaluator might do after the game, my number one priority is creating an even playing field for the athletes and coaches. Even if it came down to rules, I have no problem with the fact that I recognized before the throw-in was complete and my whistle didn't sound until after a touch. I'm always working on a more patient whistle anyway. I'm generally a rules guy, but IMHO, this situation calls for common sense over a black-and-white rules interp.

Z

An assignor can back you to the hilt on your judgment. But nobody can back you up if you misapply the rules. Officials rarely get disciplined for judgment calls. When officials get disciplined, it's b/c they clearly missed something that affected the game (6 men on the court) or b/c they misapplied a rule.

But it just seems to me that you can never get in trouble by applying the rules correctly. [/B][/QUOTE]Yup. What might be the "right" thing to do in a middle school or JV game can be the "wrong" thing to do at a higher level.

Jmo too.

Yup. What might be the "right" thing to do in a middle school or JV game can be the "wrong" thing to do at a higher level.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You might be right. Mabe 1 day I'll get a chance to work some 7th grade games to find out! :grin:

Let's see dumba$$ partner gives the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in. Dumba$$ me doesn't notice until it has been touched inbounds. Tweet, now the game is stopped.
Pain the a$$ coach knows the rule and insists that his team still keeps possession even though the officials hosed the opponent.
Here's a tempting solution.
Ref: You're right, coach. We messed up, but it's too late to fix it. It's still your ball.
Put ball in going the same way. Team crosses halfcourt. A couple of seconds later...
Ref: Tweet. Three seconds.
Coach: Ah, come on, what is that? He was barely even in there.
Ref: Yeah, coach, you have a point. Perhaps we can both stop being so picky about the rules for the rest of this game.
:)

Sounds like a solution to me.
Hey Rut, pass the popcorn.

Here you go
 

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-112639...5_1860_1163311

Peace