5 Fouls

[lukealex]

When a player fouls out and free throws are awarded, the player must leave before the first free throw correct? Assuming they player is shooting 2.

Just had to make sure

I was also asked by my partner this week when I did 7th and 8th grade games this question: If the game is not close toward the end and the teams wanted to get subs in without calling a TO, should we (refs) stop the game and allow them to enter? During a part of the game when there is little to no action. I know it's not legal, but he got feedback from AD's and coaches who would appreciate this. Your thoughts?

[Edited by lukealex on Sep 21st, 2005 at 03:01 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lukealex
1) When a player fouls out and free throws are awarded, the player must leave before the first free throw correct? Assuming they player is shooting 2.

2) I was also asked by my partner this week when I did 7th and 8th grade games this question: If the game is not close toward the end and the teams wanted to get subs in without calling a TO, should we (refs) stop the game and allow them to enter? During a part of the game when there is little to no action. I know it's not legal, but he got feedback from AD's and coaches who would appreciate this. Your thoughts?

It's also true when the player is shooting 1 or 3 FT's too. Or even more, if you're partner called a multiple foul. Note that I said "your partner".

2)No biggie in ms games usually. Make up a reason to blow your whistle- even if you call it an inadvertant whistle. Let the kids play.

[lukealex]

I said assuming shooting 2 because if they are shooting 1 or 1 and 1 it would be obvious, but from your reply it makes more sense to state it how you did. Oh well, I knew what I was talking about.

[Adam]

I saw #2 done in a varsity girls playoff game last season. I thought it was odd, but I may have been one of maybe half a dozen people who noticed it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
I saw #2 done in a varsity girls playoff game last season. I thought it was odd, but I may have been one of maybe half a dozen people who noticed it.

In NCAA-W, a coach is allowed to call a shortened time-out to just let subs in the game. I wonder if the refs were using that mechanic? The signal is kind of a travel signal held above the head. The team is charged a time-out, and the subs just come in the game, without either team going to their benches. I believe the men have a similar rule and signal.

In ms games, it certainly makes sense to let the kids in to play, even without a timeout. Just make sure they understand it's not like hockey, where they can change on the fly.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by lukealex
I was also asked by my partner this week when I did 7th and 8th grade games this question: If the game is not close toward the end and the teams wanted to get subs in without calling a TO, should we (refs) stop the game and allow them to enter? During a part of the game when there is little to no action. I know it's not legal, but he got feedback from AD's and coaches who would appreciate this. Your thoughts?

Well, they do it in the pros and in college, and occasionally in hs. It's not called a substitute stoppage, it's called a "media time-out." Can't see that this would be a bad thing in ms.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Well, they do it in the pros and in college, and occasionally in hs. It's not called a substitute stoppage, it's called a "media time-out." Can't see that this would be a bad thing in ms.

Not that I'm nit-picking you or anything - and lawd knows you never nit-pick anything here so I feel bad bringing this minor point up - but the rules for media timeouts are well defined under the ncaa and have nothing to do with the play we're discussing.

Oh yeah, in response to the original post: find a way to let the kid into the game.

[assignmentmaker]

Re Item 1, yes, the player with 5 fouls should be directed to leave immediately.

It's worth remembering that under 3-3-1-c EXCEPTION, "When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game."

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Well, they do it in the pros and in college, and occasionally in hs. It's not called a substitute stoppage, it's called a "media time-out." Can't see that this would be a bad thing in ms.

Well, all those media timeouts can only occur on an otherwise natural whistle. They don't stop a live ball for a time out. Those points are already substitution opportunities.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Not that I'm nit-picking you or anything - and lawd knows you never nit-pick anything here so I feel bad bringing this minor point up - but the rules for media timeouts are well defined under the ncaa and have nothing to do with the play we're discussing.

Oh yeah, in response to the original post: find a way to let the kid into the game.

It was a joke.

Ha ha.

Thud.

Like most of my jokes.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by lukealex
When a player fouls out and free throws are awarded, the player must leave before the first free throw correct? Assuming they player is shooting 2.

Just had to make sure

As others have already said, yes, the player should leave before any FTs are attempted.
However, if you screw it up, at least remember to follow this:
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

[truerookie]

Originally posted by lukealex
When a player fouls out and free throws are awarded, the player must leave before the first free throw correct? Assuming they player is shooting 2.

Just had to make sure

I was also asked by my partner this week when I did 7th and 8th grade games this question: If the game is not close toward the end and the teams wanted to get subs in without calling a TO, should we (refs) stop the game and allow them to enter? During a part of the game when there is little to no action. I know it's not legal, but he got feedback from AD's and coaches who would appreciate this. Your thoughts?

[Edited by lukealex on Sep 21st, 2005 at 03:01 PM]

In situation one: replace player before fts

In situation two: I am all about letting the kids play. However, if the teams have TOs and they want to get subs in they will use the TOs. I am getting a little confused here, it is ok to MISINTERPRET the rules to please AD's and coaches when it benefits them. I really have to work on the political side of my game. Got to please those ADs and coaches, forget my integrity and rules. GOT IT!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by truerookie

In situation one: replace player before fts

In situation two: I am all about letting the kids play. However, if the teams have TOs and they want to get subs in they will use the TOs. I am getting a little confused here, it is ok to MISINTERPRET the rules to please AD's and coaches when it benefits them. I really have to work on the political side of my game. Got to please those ADs and coaches, forget my integrity and rules. GOT IT!

Nope, you don't get it.

[Junker]

Maybe a better way of thinking of this is to officiate to the level you are working. Lower level games are there so players can gain experience. Also pay attention to the "tone" of a game. You can tell when you are in a gym where people understand that the players need to play and will understand and sometimes even appreciate bending the rules a little to get players in. Personally though, I would never do this after the JH level. Also, I'm not sure you want to think of these situations as "politics". It seems to be more of a game mangagement issue. Show these AD's that you understand the game and the level you are officiating and the "politics" will take care of themselves.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you don't get it.

yes, I do rules are rules no matter the level.