A1 is dribbling the ball in the frontcourt and then decides to end the dribble by catching the ball as it comes to rest on both hands. A1 becomes confused and pushes the ball to the floor once again but does not touch it as it bounces in front of him. would it be an illegal dribble when the ball is pushed to the floor after he ended his original dribble or if he touched the ball after pushing it to the floor following the original dribble ended. thanks

well
 

if he picks up his dribble how would he make a bounce pass if pushing the ball to the floor is illegal?

yes, in both scenerio NFHS 4-15-4c; 4-15-2

Nope, there's nothing illegal about the first scenario. It's not an illegal dribble until A1 touches it again after ending his original dribble. Deecee has the right answer.

Rule 9-5.

deecee, i understand what you are saying. but what i am trying to ask is if A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to start another dribble; realizes that he can not do this as he had ended his original dribble --- does the pushing of the ball to the floor for the start of the 2nd dribble make this a violation? Or is it when he touches the ball following the second attempt that would make this a violation? hope this makes sense.

thanks Jurassic. that was my thought as well. i have seen it called both ways and wanted to make sure that my interpretation was correct.

there is no interpretation
 

if a player picks up his dribble and goes to start a new dribble that is completly legal -- he just cannot touch the ball until someone else does first. You will see this happen and a player who is at least decent will then try and box out defenders who try and touch the ball. Doesn't matter what he is trying to do -- what he did was not illegal -- at least until he touches the ball.

I beg to differ. A dribble is started by pushing the ball to the floor (4-15-3). It doesn't say you have to touch it again for it to be a dribble. If you judge that the player was dribbling - violation.

Check out case 4.15.4 Situation A. Note that the violation occurs when A1 pushes the ball to the floor, not when A1 catches it after it hits the floor.

Z

However a pass is when a player throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

If a player bats the ball how do you differentiate between a pass & a dribble?

Based on 4.15.4 Situation A, I'd say that a referee's judgment is required.

Z

So I can judge a bounce pass is a double dribble?

You could, but it would be pretty poor judgement. I'm not trying to be a jerk. How do you interpret 4.15.4 Sit A?

Z

once again
 

this dead horse is about to be beat -- make this call and then T up the coach for calling you on it and being angry because its a bad call. Until the player touches the ball consider it lose and let the action take care of itself. To much judgement not enough play

I think elecref points to an inconsistency
 

"How do you interpret 4.15.4 Sit A?"

As you must interpret lots of Fed rules. As best you can. Many, even most of the time, rule changes have been made and interpretations added on an ad hoc basis, without adequate attention to clarity and consistency. Are the rules worse than the Windows operating system, where to 'shut down' you go to 'start'?

Consider the poor 'Intentional Foul'. "It may or may not be premeditated", despite the fact that premeditated is a pretty good synonym for intentional.

I am not simply kicking the dog here. The rules grew up by committee, over a long period of time. It is a shame, IMHO, that the Fed has not invested some of its cashflow in having people skilled in the art normalize the rules.

This all being pre-amble, you interpet 4.15.4 Situation A as being slightly less than robust and use your judgment in the matter under consideration here as to whether or not a braincramp, pass, or dribble is intended - or, ohmygoditgetsworse - a 'fumble' has gone down, so to speak.

Re: once again
 

It's a bad call because you say so even though the rules support it? Can't imagine this leading to a T.

Z

You agree it's bad judgement yet you still focus on the words in 4.15.4 sit A.

If you were comfortable with the words then you would have no problem with the occasional bounce pass being whistled as an illegal dribble.

So, to answer your question: I don't care what 4.15.4 sit A says, it does not reflect the intent of the rules.

If A1 bats the ball to the ground after he's used his dribble I do not have an illegal dribble until he "completes" the dribble by touching it again. That is because I must eliminate the possibility that A1 passed the ball, which is perfectly legal.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref You agree it's bad judgement yet you still focus on the words in 4.15.4 sit A. If you were comfortable with the words then you would have no problem with the occasional bounce pass being whistled as an illegal dribble. So, to answer your question: I don't care what 4.15.4 sit A says, it does not reflect the intent of the rules. If A1 bats the ball to the ground after he's used his dribble I do not have an illegal dribble until he "completes" the dribble by touching it again. That is because I must eliminate the possibility that A1 passed the ball, which is perfectly legal.

I think it's pretty obvious (using judgment) in most cases of whether a player is trying to pass or dribble. I can't remember a case where I couldn't tell which one the player was attempting.

The intent of the double dribble rule is to prevent a player from dribbling again after completing a dribble. Since the rules specifically state that a dribble starts when a player pushes the ball to the floor, it seems logical that the violation occurs when the referee judges that a second dribble was started. I'm still waiting for someone to show a rule or case that says otherwise.

Z

Then why is it bad judgement to whistle a bounce pass as an illegal dribble? Using your reasoning bounce passes would be illegal if a player ended his dribble.

Anyway, I'm not all that concerned if you believe me or not, or if someone provides words from the book to convince you. Of course I already gave you a rule which gives 3 ways to start a pass, 1 of which is exactly the same as the start of a dribble. If you can't accept that then that's ok with me.

Come on now, Dan...do you really think it's that hard to tell the difference between the start of a dribble and a bounce pass to a teammate? The only time I can see holding the whistle until he/she touches it again is the situation where the player might throw it way out ahead of them and then run and get it themselves...otherwise, a new dribble and a bounce pass just aren't that similiar looking...

After ending his dribble A1 bats the ball to the floor but does not touch it. A2, standing nearby, catches the ball after a few bounces.

Double dribble?

You're really trying to make this more difficult than it is. If you felt that the bat was the start of a dribble, you whistle the violation when the ball hits the floor. If you felt it was a pass, you have nothing. Pretty basic stuff.

Z

As I already said I do NOT whistle this when the ball hits the floor.

As I already said feel free to do so at your games.

Technically, the violation occurs on the release of the new dribble and is based solely on whether the release was intended to be a dribble or not. Practially, we often wait for the next touch as confirmation that it was indeed a dribble.